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freaklip Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2002 Posts: 123 Location: Wilmington
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:27 pm Post subject: Choking off the air in the throat |
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I don't know if this even makes sense. My son is new to trumpet, and I work with him a lot. He seems like he is choking off the air with his throat. Sometimes I can hear grunting sounds. Seems like he's way too tense from the neck up, and he tires himself out. Are there any good exercises to work on something like that, or is this maybe a phase of early development? |
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daDavemeister Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 798 Location: Sonoma, Ca
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe helpful, maybe not... but what I have to say to myself when I fall into the trap of choking off the air: "Don't hold it back. Get as much air to your lips as possible and accept the possibility of missing notes."
I don't know of simpler way to put it.
For me, it was always "trying" to play the right notes that caused problems. Accepting that there might be a train wreck and learning to just let it go has made me into a much, much better player. _________________ Dave Lindgren of Sonoma, Ca
Bach 37 Bb, Yamaha Malone 6445HII C, Schilke P5-4, Schilke E3L-4, Dotzauer Rotary C, Benge 8Z cornet, eBay flugel |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7012 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Mechanically, if the tip of the tongue is anchored to the back of the lower front teeth and is arched forward, there is almost no way to close the glottis.
But first, breathing has to be correct. Often, neck tension is substituted for good breath support. If your son learns to breathe properly, he will be less inclined to close the throat.
If this seems to be the problem and you would like a simple exercise to establish good breathing habits, send me a PM and I will explain what I mean.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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BuckTrump Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2005 Posts: 119
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Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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(sorry I keep editing)
I can sympathize with the issue of fighting throat tension in trumpet playing. Something that I've worked a lot on is trying to get my trumpet playing to feel as natural as possible. The best way for me to do this is to simply breathe in, and breathe out (imagining a pendulum swinging - it never halts - it just constantly keeps moving). Then I try to keep that same pattern/feeling going with a long buzz on the mouthpiece. If I can make the transition smoothly from my inhale to creating a tension-free buzz, then trumpet playing is much, much easier.
I take this one step further by making sure that I do not "prepare myself" for the notes I am about to play. This comes in many forms (throat and tongue primarily) and happens when my lungs have begun to exhale, but something else tries to keep the air from moving.
The problem for many students is that this is how they have always played. The process of "breathe in, create tension, play" is a cycle that they naturally believe in necessary for playing the trumpet; and that with time/practice it should get better. Getting the student to trust that playing the trumpet is truly as simple as "inhale-exhale-inhale-exhale" is (in my opinion) vital to playing in a relaxed manner. This (to me) is more a matter of redefining the process of playing the trumpet, and less about what exercises to practice.
I could talk about this more, and if I wasn't clear - feel free to PM me.
Best of luck,
Ben |
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NDtrumpet Regular Member
Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 21 Location: Grand Forks, North Dakota
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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To sort of go off of bucktrump's idea of proper breathing, is to make sure he is taking breaths from down in his diaphragm. Maynard said to breath from your knees, as silly as that sounds, it holds some truth. if your son is breathing high up in the lungs and raising his shoulders that instantly creates tension, and in turn will close off the throat, which results in less endurance, poor tone, and decreased range. breathing is the key for everything. if something is wrong with your playing start from the beginning, your breathing. hope it helps! _________________ Yamaha 8310 Custom Z Bb
1947 Conn 80A Cornet
Yamaha 938 FFMGS Rotary C Trumpet |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Maynard said to breath from your knees, as silly as that sounds |
No sillier than "breathe form your diaphragm".
One of the examples I give to students is exactly what you are saying, freaklip. If you take a full relaxed breath, allowing you body to expand as it will, the air wants out. If you hold it with your mouth open - it will be your throat that holds the air. Everything from the neck down is perfect, but the throat is causing tension. If you hold the air at the lips, you just release the sound with your tongue. That buoyancy is enough to play up through the staff - above is just a gentle push. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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freaklip Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2002 Posts: 123 Location: Wilmington
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:49 am Post subject: |
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You guys are great. Thanks for the help. |
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jhatpro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 10204 Location: The Land Beyond O'Hare
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Suggest to your son that he relax his stomach/abs rather than tighten them, as many players do thinking this is what produces high notes. In fact, this triggers the valsalva maneuver which tightens the throat and leads to the grunting sound you're hearing. Summing up: suggest he take deep, full but relaxed OH breaths and see if that doesn't help. _________________ Jim Hatfield
"The notes are there - find them.” Mingus
2021 Martinus Geelan Custom
2005 Bach 180-72R
1965 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1946 Conn Victor
1998 Scodwell flugel
1986 Bach 181 cornet
1954 Conn 80A cornet
2002 Getzen bugle |
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jouko Veteran Member
Joined: 02 Nov 2002 Posts: 147 Location: Finland
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Hi everybody,
freaklip
wrote::
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I don't know if this even makes sense. My son is new to trumpet, and I work with him a lot. He seems like he is choking off the air with his throat. Sometimes I can hear grunting sounds. Seems like he's way too tense from the neck up, and he tires himself out. Are there any good exercises to work on something like that, or is this maybe a phase of early development
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to think about the best advice for your son as a trumpetplayer I advice you to get a good teacher and your son shall thank you about it when he is older.
Ther is so much opinions and words about this topic that you and your son are going only more and more confused about it and about trumpetplaying in general.
Kind Regards
Jouko Moilanen
Helsinki, Finland |
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trptdork Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 197
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:30 am Post subject: |
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I had a former student who did this exact thing: kept tension in the neck and throat area, and "grunted" whilst playing.
We cured it by having him intentionally make that sound while playing, and when he could pin point what he was doing, and recreate it at will, he could also stop it at will.
I find it easiest to stop a physical action, when I know exactly what that action is that I'm trying to stop feels like.
Sort of a "If you can recreate it, you can also not recreate it." kind of philosophy. At least that works for me, and of course the aforementioned student!
Best of luck! _________________ Bach 72 bell/25 pipe
Warburton 5s/Qm
Bach 6C |
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lmaraya Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2005 Posts: 618
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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jhatpro wrote: | Suggest to your son that he relax his stomach/abs rather than tighten them, as many players do thinking this is what produces high notes. In fact, this triggers the valsalva maneuver which tightens the throat and leads to the grunting sound you're hearing. Summing up: suggest he take deep, full but relaxed OH breaths and see if that doesn't help. |
Agree with jhatpro, and I think that the reason why it happens is because players perceive high notes as being "hard", by thinking hard=heavy, the brain wants to activate (unconsciously) the same mechanism that works great to lift heavy objects (valsalva maneuver) but is the worst thing a wind musician can do.
So my advice is to play Study #1 by Clarke (the chromatic scale one), very softly. Starting at the beginning, as he goes higher he should try to identify where he is feeling the slightest tension in the throat, there is where he should try to fix the problem, even if it is sounding "good", not when it is already too late (choked sound and grunting noises). He should try to blow as if he wanted to fog a mirror, IMHO.
LA |
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kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3260 Location: Alabama
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | If you take a full relaxed breath, allowing you body to expand as it will, the air wants out. If you hold it with your mouth open - it will be your throat that holds the air. |
Not always.
It is possible to hold the air with the "inhale" muscular action and keep the throat (and everything else) free of tension. And this is no detriment to playing. (At times it is required.) The inhale/exhale is NOT one action. It is two distinctly separate actions. You only need not overlap them to eliminate tension. But a pause is not necessarily a cause of tension. Neither in the blowing mechanism OR the throat.
Also, the vigorous use of the exhale muscles does not automatically induce the valsalva.
Quote: | Agree with jhatpro, and I think that the reason why it happens is because players perceive high notes as being "hard", by thinking hard=heavy, the brain wants to activate (unconsciously) the same mechanism that works great to lift heavy objects (valsalva maneuver) but is the worst thing a wind musician can do. |
But loud dynamics, especially high notes at loud dynamics, DO require relatively higher air pressure and the exhale muscles are used more intensely. Especially as the lungs become more empty of air on a long note or phrase.
One SHOULD strive to play with as much efficiency as possible to minimize the air pressure required. But as one ventures into the loudest dynamics, especially on higher pitches, more effort IS required.
To the OP: lots of soft practice with very gradual increases in range and loudness will encourage the student to ward-off the tension.
And the soft/low notes should be played with low effort. Not "lots" of air. |
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garrett901 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Very good explanations on Darryl's part... Read the Yoga book, "The Science of Breath". Do a search, it's out there as a free download. Brass players can learn a lot from this book. Yoga is about (partly) the release of tension... This book will teach you how to breath ! I know it sounds sort of silly, and most folks will just say, "I was born breathing and I've been doing it all my life!". Trust me, it will open your eyes, if you let it... _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org |
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Axiantor New Member
Joined: 11 Oct 2013 Posts: 6 Location: Lisbon
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Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:17 am Post subject: |
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I'm still a beginner. I've been playing for 3 years but with a lot of stops.
I still have this chocking problem. Mostly just while playing exercises. Tongue on lips. Sometimes I begin with a relaxed breath but as the notes gets higher I start chocking. Feels like my throat just closed.
I don't remember having this while I'm just playing tunes.
I hope this thread is still active.
All the best. _________________ The Music is alive
www.healthnmoney.com |
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Billy B Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: |
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For a long time I had a problem of choking off above hi c, no real issues till then unless tired, but the note didn’t ring. Then I bought into the concept that more air doesn’t make higher notes, it makes louder notes. If you can get the notes under your belt by maintaining same or less air, you will start to develop the strength to get the volume. In my experience it doesn’t work the other way. There are a lot of methods discussed here on the forum and I am sure that they work for the people who post. Playing softly seems to help me get the feel of the note more, and something is working. I’m not making huge strides this way but I am making steady progress. Hope this helps. You will know if it helps right away.
Rod |
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EBjazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2001 Posts: 2368 Location: SF Bay Area
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