• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Tone on Eb/D trumpet


Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
LSOfanboy
Veteran Member


Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
How notes lie on the horn is dictated to some extent by physics. It is tedious but not too hard to calculate out-of-tune notes occurring due to the impact of the bell (or other tubes). This also relates to slotting and can show that certain notes can be "squirrely" even when right next to other in the scale. Acoustic resonances can be narrow and deep. It is most certainly not always the player's fault.


Hi,

I am familiar with the laws of acoustics, particularly in regard to playing the trumpet. Would you be able to explain your comment?

The standing wave diminishes in strength as we move up the harmonic series, but notes right next to each other (unless we are talking about the very close high end harmonics) should not cause the sound quality to change massively, not unless there is an intrinsic fault with the individual valve slides. A pro will play any trumpet and achieve a consistent sound up to the high end harmonics, even if they finish and say 'the intonation is poor' etc.

I would, however, be interested to hear your explanation.

Thanks for all the discussion!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TMT
Regular Member


Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anybody can make anything work, the question is how much doing so hampers their musical expression. The further your setup plays from the required character of the sound the piece demands, all your work is going to go into compensating instead of being accurate, etc.

To the original poster: I would listen to James Becker regarding the instrument being more work than its worth, but before you trade for something else I would also try more mouthpieces. LOTS more. The rim, throat, backbore of stock 5C/7C's are designed to play a certain way, and most certainly aren't doing anything to lessen your impression of that horn being zingy. Not the size of the cup or diameter, mind you, but the style of rim etc. Example: a 1.5C generally has the same size cup as a 5C but with a different rim and entrance to the throat that allows for a much less "tinny" sound.

Lastly, have you recorded yourself? Is the sound on tape harsh or merely brilliant? You have to train yourself to play with the sound that works in the hall or on tape, and know that same sound reflected from the stand might in fact be awful. Great example: Jon Lewis has a sound to die for in a large room or on tape, but you sit next to him and the sound reflected by his stand is so concentrated it sounds harsh. This is actually something I wish more teachers addressed, I completely dismissed certain professors I had because I thought they sounded terrible--sitting beside them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Don Herman rev2
'Chicago School' Forum Moderator


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 8951
Location: Monument, CO

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
Don Herman rev2 wrote:
How notes lie on the horn is dictated to some extent by physics. It is tedious but not too hard to calculate out-of-tune notes occurring due to the impact of the bell (or other tubes). This also relates to slotting and can show that certain notes can be "squirrely" even when right next to other in the scale. Acoustic resonances can be narrow and deep. It is most certainly not always the player's fault.


Hi,

I am familiar with the laws of acoustics, particularly in regard to playing the trumpet. Would you be able to explain your comment?

The standing wave diminishes in strength as we move up the harmonic series, but notes right next to each other (unless we are talking about the very close high end harmonics) should not cause the sound quality to change massively, not unless there is an intrinsic fault with the individual valve slides. A pro will play any trumpet and achieve a consistent sound up to the high end harmonics, even if they finish and say 'the intonation is poor' etc.

I would, however, be interested to hear your explanation.

Thanks for all the discussion!


You may understand acoustics much better than I, and as a player I am quite sure I am not fit to wash the spittle from your mouthpiece, but in fact nodes and antinodes can be quite narrow. Perhaps more important in this case is that completely different pieces of tubing come into play and so the fundamental overtone (pitch) series changes from one note to the next. The bell is part of a system so it may not be the bell alone but rather the bell together with other changes. For example, going from C below the staff to D significantly changes the length of tubing in the system and thus the resonance can change as well. Same thing happens for most notes; you are changing, through the use of valves, the resonance points of the system.

We have three valves to play eleven notes and all of their harmonics. No horn is going to resonate each and every pitch perfectly, though some can get closer than others. Variations in bell flare, changes in inner diameter, position of braces, diameter and length of tubing, etc. can all affect where (at what frequency) the resonances lie. Designers adjust variables to achieve the sound they desire with (I assume) resonances as close to the scale as possible (or reasonable). But, when you go from one note to another, you are in general changing the system and so the note that slots perfectly may be followed by the next in the scale and yet not feel or play at all the same.

The length of tubing working with the bell flare that makes a C in the staff perfectly in tune, may not be optimal for the E above, and when you play a D between them the resonance that plays in tune may not perfectly match the D below the staff due to both the difference in length and variation in how the frequencies line up through the bell flare.

At least in my experience, which as a purely amateur player is completely unworthy of consideration, but that does not change my understanding of physics. This has to do with the horn and not the player IME/IMO but again I no doubt do not have your level of expertise in the physics of acoustics as applied to trumpets. To me, a better player can overcome the horn's deficiencies, but to say the horn is not a contributing factor belies the underlying physics of the system. Or it may simply be that every horn I have played suffers from artifacts causing them to vary from ideal resonance frequencies with respect to the scale over several octaves, or more likely from your viewpoint I am simply a poor player blaming the horn when I have to compensate to achieve the proper pitch.

As for reference, there are many texts dealing with acoustic resonances as well as online references, and many papers on the physics of wind instruments, but I'll just go back to basics and cite my old graduate acoustics text:

L.E. Kinsler, A.R. Frey, A.B. Coppens, J.V. Sanders, Fundamentals of Acoustics, Third Ed., John Wiley and Sons, NY, 1982.

The wave equations are covered in Chapter 5, pipes are covered in Chapter 9, and resonators in Chapter 10. When you introduce the bell flare, you have to solve the wave equations to find the resonances, which may be easier numerically using a flow simulator than by hand. Of course resorting to a computer may simply be my way of compensating for my poor math skills.

Enjoy.
_________________
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding physics, how do you suppose a choke of -.033" at the small end of the bell would play into it's faulty scale? As I previously stated, one could resort to alternate fingerings in the low register to overcome it's shortcomings, or reconfigure the components into something more useful. Having measured countless numbers of trumpets in order to understand the whys and wherefores, this one was a doozy. It makes me question what the good folks at Getzen where thinking back in the day.

My two cents.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
LSOfanboy
Veteran Member


Joined: 08 Jul 2018
Posts: 347

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
LSOfanboy wrote:
Don Herman rev2 wrote:
How notes lie on the horn is dictated to some extent by physics. It is tedious but not too hard to calculate out-of-tune notes occurring due to the impact of the bell (or other tubes). This also relates to slotting and can show that certain notes can be "squirrely" even when right next to other in the scale. Acoustic resonances can be narrow and deep. It is most certainly not always the player's fault.


Hi,

I am familiar with the laws of acoustics, particularly in regard to playing the trumpet. Would you be able to explain your comment?

The standing wave diminishes in strength as we move up the harmonic series, but notes right next to each other (unless we are talking about the very close high end harmonics) should not cause the sound quality to change massively, not unless there is an intrinsic fault with the individual valve slides. A pro will play any trumpet and achieve a consistent sound up to the high end harmonics, even if they finish and say 'the intonation is poor' etc.

I would, however, be interested to hear your explanation.

Thanks for all the discussion!


You may understand acoustics much better than I, and as a player I am quite sure I am not fit to wash the spittle from your mouthpiece, but in fact nodes and antinodes can be quite narrow. Perhaps more important in this case is that completely different pieces of tubing come into play and so the fundamental overtone (pitch) series changes from one note to the next. The bell is part of a system so it may not be the bell alone but rather the bell together with other changes. For example, going from C below the staff to D significantly changes the length of tubing in the system and thus the resonance can change as well. Same thing happens for most notes; you are changing, through the use of valves, the resonance points of the system.

We have three valves to play eleven notes and all of their harmonics. No horn is going to resonate each and every pitch perfectly, though some can get closer than others. Variations in bell flare, changes in inner diameter, position of braces, diameter and length of tubing, etc. can all affect where (at what frequency) the resonances lie. Designers adjust variables to achieve the sound they desire with (I assume) resonances as close to the scale as possible (or reasonable). But, when you go from one note to another, you are in general changing the system and so the note that slots perfectly may be followed by the next in the scale and yet not feel or play at all the same.

The length of tubing working with the bell flare that makes a C in the staff perfectly in tune, may not be optimal for the E above, and when you play a D between them the resonance that plays in tune may not perfectly match the D below the staff due to both the difference in length and variation in how the frequencies line up through the bell flare.

At least in my experience, which as a purely amateur player is completely unworthy of consideration, but that does not change my understanding of physics. This has to do with the horn and not the player IME/IMO but again I no doubt do not have your level of expertise in the physics of acoustics as applied to trumpets. To me, a better player can overcome the horn's deficiencies, but to say the horn is not a contributing factor belies the underlying physics of the system. Or it may simply be that every horn I have played suffers from artifacts causing them to vary from ideal resonance frequencies with respect to the scale over several octaves, or more likely from your viewpoint I am simply a poor player blaming the horn when I have to compensate to achieve the proper pitch.

As for reference, there are many texts dealing with acoustic resonances as well as online references, and many papers on the physics of wind instruments, but I'll just go back to basics and cite my old graduate acoustics text:

L.E. Kinsler, A.R. Frey, A.B. Coppens, J.V. Sanders, Fundamentals of Acoustics, Third Ed., John Wiley and Sons, NY, 1982.

The wave equations are covered in Chapter 5, pipes are covered in Chapter 9, and resonators in Chapter 10. When you introduce the bell flare, you have to solve the wave equations to find the resonances, which may be easier numerically using a flow simulator than by hand. Of course resorting to a computer may simply be my way of compensating for my poor math skills.

Enjoy.


Hi,

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to outline that fantastic information and adding to this discussion!

I apologise but I can't quite work out if you are being incredibly generous (which can be rare on these forums- if so, thanks very much!) or if it all sarcastic, in which case; you're entitled to your opinion!

In terms of understanding physics and acoustical law, I would not suggest at all that my knowledge was superior to your own- I was only saying that I have a solid understanding and am equipped to comprehend a more scientifically based discussion. After all, my training and career is as a trumpet player and not a physicist.

As far as I can tell, we are actually in almost total agreement. I am the first to say that some trumpets have poor intonation, or uneven slotting; which may well come from design flaws. Equally though, and I think we seem to agree on this too, no trumpet is built with genuinely 'bad/squirelly sounding notes' in- the consistency of tone is a facet of the player and not the instrument. How easy it is to produce a perfectly resonant and in-tune scale is another matter entirely.

Thanks again for your post and do get back to me if you dispute anything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Del
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2660
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
Having measured countless numbers of trumpets in order to understand the whys and wherefores, this one was a doozy. It makes me question what the good folks at Getzen where thinking back in the day.

My two cents.

As James says, these Getzen instruments are the pits.

I have this suspicion, and it is just that... that many, many instrument makers thought nothing much at all when making a horn in days gone past.

Those Getzen Eb trumpets are so clearly bits of other models cobbled together, as illustrated by that join in the bell. Grab the various parts, use the standard measurements for the X pitched horn, and start soldering.

If one looks and thinks, you can see it everywhere...

Tell me the S bend D/Eb trumpets are not like that because someone thought they could use a first valve slide as the tuning slide, so there was more length to go into the lead pipe? Have part, will adapt... (These horns, however, seem to work rather well, my Kanstul especially so.)

There are other makes and models which just... don't work. The reason is not clear, but they certainly have issues. One is the original B&H Sovereign flugel horn. To all appearances, a bright silver version of the older Imperial models, which sort of played across the range, those Sovereigns were just terrible. I had one which stopped dead at the top of the stave, and nothing and no one could make it work up higher. Below, and down low, it was sort of nice, in an out of tune BBB way. I have now had the misfortune to play exactly three of these and discuss them with two other players I respect. They were dogs of instruments and remain so today.

Yet, this year I worked with a maker on the intonation of one of their piccolos. We discussed the issues I had with this horn - not a friend's identical model built 18 months later. Their fix was not my fix, but it certainly worked. Pitch on certain notes moved back into place and it is now wonderful instrument to play.

If it was all in the player, and not the tubes / horn, I wouldn't have had such positive result. Nor would no one have been able to play my old B&H flugel.

This is not a simplistic subject which follows the 'rules', if indeed there are any.

cheers

Andy
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dale Proctor
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9343
Location: Heart of Dixie

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of so-so Eb trumpets, have any of you played the Olds Ambassador Eb/D trumpet? I've had one for years and am not too fond of it in Eb, but it's serviceable in D.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale, you make a valid point. It's not uncommon for an instrument intended to be played in two keys have one key play better than the other. Glad to hear the D side works because I never cared much for the Olds Ambasador standing in Eb.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Fundamentals All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group