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Olds Long Shank Cornet.. Sources ?


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Abraxas
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Location: London, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B. Scriver wrote:
This is probably a shank diameter issue. The standard cornet shank taper starts at .341" There are some smaller ones that will start at .337". The standard Bach spec from years ago starts at .355". We have made cornets blanks for some Olds horns that start at .365".

All the tapers are the same .050" per inch. For every .001" you increase the diameter you will change the engagement .02".

We worked on projects for Charlie Melk restoring these Olds cornets. He can provide info it you contact him as well.

Old Standards used for decades.

Bach Standards #349 Cornet - .341" beginning diameter, engagement of 7/8" or .875", end of engagement or receiver opening .385" Taper is .0500" per inch.

GR
www.grmouthpieces.com


Ok I'm not sure what I'm reading here as I took pretty careful measurements of the receiver I now have - there are always going to be errors - and I certainly didn't get a 0.050 taper. i do appreciate that is the taper now, but what was the pre-switch taper ? I got 0.041.

The outside dimensions, enabling more precision , were an absolute mess but perhaps on account of wear or deformation during manufacture. As far as talking to others, are there any people on this form who actually worked at Olds ? I do have a guy in my music band who started out in WW2 marching bands. They can't all be gone.

I'll take the numbers you provided above to relate only to modern, post switch, cornet mpcs, which I guess is what I asked for, since I've already figured out the older taper. Be nice however to see that measurement reaffirmed by another source.
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B. Scriver
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary Radtke
7:56 PM (1 hour ago)
to me

One addition the .355" dimension is the Flugelhorn. Sorry

Maybe you don't know Charlie Melk of Charlies Brass Works.

" We worked on projects for Charlie Melk restoring these Olds cornets. He can provide info it you contact him as well.

We built the gauge that Charlie uses for restoring these Olds cornets. Charlie had a shank gauge we made, a new receiver and he can inspect this. Either send a mouthpiece or the horn, he can check it. Email Charlie. Many here can verify that Charlie is a trusted person. If you don't know Charlie Melk, he the best in my book, as least one of the best in the business.

I feel you have a mess with these old worn parts. That is why Charlie has gauges. The measurements would never be .009" off on a worn taper. I've never seen a taper @ .041" per inch. You need to check this with gauge pins or make a mold internally and use a optical comparator with 1 mircon resolution scales.

GR
www.grmouthpieces.com
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Abraxas
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Joined: 31 Jan 2018
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Location: London, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B. Scriver wrote:
Gary Radtke
7:56 PM (1 hour ago)
to me

One addition the .355" dimension is the Flugelhorn. Sorry

Maybe you don't know Charlie Melk of Charlies Brass Works.

" We worked on projects for Charlie Melk restoring these Olds cornets. He can provide info it you contact him as well.

We built the gauge that Charlie uses for restoring these Olds cornets. Charlie had a shank gauge we made, a new receiver and he can inspect this. Either send a mouthpiece or the horn, he can check it. Email Charlie. Many here can verify that Charlie is a trusted person. If you don't know Charlie Melk, he the best in my book, as least one of the best in the business.

I feel you have a mess with these old worn parts. That is why Charlie has gauges. The measurements would never be .009" off on a worn taper. I've never seen a taper @ .041" per inch. You need to check this with gauge pins or make a mold internally and use a optical comparator with 1 mircon resolution scales.

GR
www.grmouthpieces.com


I'm a licensed machinist with a pretty decent shop. Only the outside diameters were a mess but of course not important. The receiver was pretty much egg shaped on the outside. Anyhow, I did in fact make a gauge pin, on my lathe and quite accurately (to 0.00001) measured it's diameter. After inserting it to the point where it bottomed out, very close to the nominal recommended depth, I came in with a parting tool (a rectangular cutter kind of like a stick of gum on it's edge, lined it up with the mouth of my receiver, turned the lathe on and cut a square groove at that point. I then measured it end to groove. Using the diameter and length, I calculated the taper. I guess I could have made a series of pins and done an average, but was confident enough of the first pin to come to these conclusions. If you are saying that the old shank is also a 0.050 taper, then the newer small shanks, when they bottom out, should fit like a glove, no ? I'm not sure they do, but I should know soon.

"You need to check this with gauge pins or make a mold internally and use a optical comparator with 1 mircon resolution scales. ".... There are easier ways to do it and with 1/10 of a thou accuracy. I'm too lazy to do the set up and don't require that kind of accuracy. (hint: a vertical mill with a digital read out and a dial indicator.... i don't have the time)
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Messed around a bit more with this problem and it appears as though my disingenuous idea of just making an adapter between the two tapers, isn't going to do anything for me except knock the intonation out of the ball park. I'll wait until I see some mpcs come up on Ebay or for Mark Curry to be back firing on all cylinders.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought you were going to make a new receiver. The difference in shank sizes is too small for an adapter to work without being too long.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
I thought you were going to make a new receiver. The difference in shank sizes is too small for an adapter to work without being too long.


I certainly can make a receiver, if it will actually work. I don't quite get you on the adapter business ?? The difference is indeed small, so much so that after reaming the center bore, I'd have to probably stuff it with something, like the clay they use in dental offices for taking imprints. Solder could be made to work also. I'd end up with a thin walled sleeve essentially, with a bit of a rim on the end to catch the lip of the receiver.

The thing is that when I let a regular shank mpc bottom out, the intonation is off. It rolls out about 20 cents flat in the top ABC. the thing is though, that the same thing happens with the current MPC, which I am guessing is a flugle. I wish i had an MPC that I knew I could trust, as a start, for analysis or reference.

I'm surprised neither of these things has been tried before, at least not that I know of. Perhaps they too ended in failure and people are not inclined to report on their failures.


Last edited by Abraxas on Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might add that my MT1 set of reamers is on the way from China, which could take a couple of months to arrive.
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Abraxas
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, can anyone tell me, when I'm looking at MPC ads and it's not stated by the seller, how one can tell if it's a large shank ?
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