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Type 4 Rattle


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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sent!
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Josh!

So, now I see that he gave me this for what he called the Nerve-Racking Ab Rattle, and it was dated October 6, 1984.

If anybody would like this, email me through the TH email link below and I will be happy to send it to you. Be sure to send me your email address.

Thanks again, Josh!
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sent the Rattle sheet to a couple guys, and got the following question (he gave his permission to post this):

In an email to me, a fellow trumpeter wrote:
I understand most of what is said here and its not far from what I am doing but I am a little stuck. What does it mean to "kill the feel that goes along with the rattle and mental damage is far worse than muscular damage”?

Here was my reply to him:

The way that it feels when that rattle starts . . . we have to do whatever it takes to stay away from that and not make that an “indelible” feel. If we get to where we expect it to be there, we should not be surprised when it’s there. But if we pull back the moment before it starts, little by little and bit by bit we are able to erase that feel.

And that’s why he’s saying it’s more a mental thing than a physical (muscular) thing. Our mind can bring it on if the muscles let it.

That’s the way I interpret that, anyway, having been somebody with many mental battle scars on trumpet, then leaving trumpet for 14 years and coming back to it. A lot of those scars wanted to creep in, but I didn’t let them. I took my time, nice and slow, and came back to trumpet by baby steps to avoid making some of those old things indelible.

Thanks for writing!

Rich

In a follow-up email, the same trumpeter wrote:
Rich

Thanks again. This belongs on the Trumpet Herald or at least a modified version of that in the rattle thread.

So now it's here.
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Mac Gollehon
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A type 4 rattle as well as many other type 4 related problems can be fixed by doing the jaw retention drill and the Air to nose drill. I am aware that air to nose is a Roy Stevens thing but still apples to Docs type 4 classification. That’s the fix. The cause is from pinning or meathooking top lip under the rim. Lip separation follows as do all the problems that go with it. Jaw retention drill and think top lip down to receive air column.
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elgin
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac. Your remedy of air to nose and Jaw forward fits with my contention that the rattles are related to an uncertain airstream direction. Why else would they work?
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Last edited by elgin on Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mac Gollehon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elgin yes the consistency of airstream in upward direction in conjunction with the proper teeth alignment and lip alignment and mouthpiece weight and placement favoring bottom lip . This provides a stable tripod for the mouthpiece and lips to maintain the seal needed for a clear tone without rattle. The rattle is result of faulty alignment and unfavorable mouthpiece weight distribution and miscalculations in air and lip compression ratio. These things are necessary for the best results of a Type 4. Endurance and range and dynamic variables for a Type 4 player can be nearly limitless or quite disasterous. Takes some patience to work it out. The air to nose drill helps to get there.
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elgin
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today, I was having an especially bad double-buzz day. Partly because I practiced hard late last night, and also I'm not feeling to well today. Anyway, I gave your suggestion a try. I already play with my lower teeth ahead of my uppers, so I exaggerated to the point of having a good 3/16" forward gap, which produced a very high horn angle. The rattles disappeared! I've only seen a few players with a horn angle that high, so I guess I've felt in the past that this couldn't be right for me.

Doc cautioned against buzzing upstream, but I don't see a huge difference between buzzing upstream (I've been doing some) and the nose-to-air drill. I see the logic in it for both the feel and the muscular development.
Thanks Mac
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Mac Gollehon
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Elgin. The measurement of one quarter inch teeth opening should suffice as long as bottom teeth are slightly forward of top teeth (and remain there) for commencement of the tone. Many times that position is not maintained throughout the phrase being played. Very important to adhere to this for a Type 4. Doc told me in 1977 in my case don’t do lip buzzing because I was not depending on the buzz to produce the tone but rather the short stroke vibration of the top lip and direction of the airstream to upper mouthpiece cup where the rim meets the top of cup and creates a different turbulence then air and vibration straight into the hole. He said in my case buzzing would cause blown apart spread lips in the low and midrange. Once again this advice was for me and possibly other type 4 players (I don’t know for a fact)and probably should not be correct for downstream types. Glad that helped with getting rid of the rattle and wish you continued success .
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
When you guys say "rattle" are you referring to what others call a "double buzz" or "double lip vibration" or "cracked tone" or is this something different?


I REALLY think it is what others call double buzz. I get it when I am out of practice. My solution is patience, long tones, playing soft enough to avoid the buzz, and it will go away. I'm currently in the final stages of eliminating it. I was in Korea for 2 weeks and practiced maybe 4 times during the trip. The day I got home I felt and sounded fine. I worked on the Seahawk fanfare, and the next day and the two weeks since, I've been double buzzing or rattling. Its getting better and better with long tones. It hits me right around the G, A, and B in the staff.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's see if this works:



Well alright, then! We finally have this sheet posted!
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elgin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich
Thanks for posting that.
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elgin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac
Thanks for the info. Interesting reason for not buzzing for type IV. I'll have to think about that and check it out.
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elgin
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=Doc told me in 1977 in my case don’t do lip buzzing because I was not depending on the buzz to produce the tone but rather the short stroke vibration of the top lip and direction of the airstream to upper mouthpiece cup where the rim meets the top of cup and creates a different turbulence then air and vibration straight into the hole. He said in my case buzzing would cause blown apart spread lips in the low and midrange. Once again this advice was for me and possibly other type 4 players (I don’t know for a fact)and probably should not be correct for downstream types. Glad that helped with getting rid of the rattle and wish you continued success .[/quote]

So, Doc didn’t say don’t buzz upstream, he said “don’t buzz”. I’m wondering if buzzing upstream would have been OK? I can see why downstream buzzing could spread the chops, but not upstream.

Btw Mac, keeping the jaw more forward and thinking “air-to-nose” while playing is really working well for rattles. I’m even more convinced that they are primarily caused by an anomalous airstream.

An added benefit is that I have better compression/resistance.
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got this pretty darn bad. It wasn't brought on by anything to do with jaw position, horn angle, lack of pressure on lower lip, etc, so I'm concluding its from strain or damage to lip tissue. I'm going to lay off playing for 2 weeks. The world of music will have to do without me for a short while. I'll report back in 2 weeks.
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elgin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetjaguar
Sorry to hear that. Are you a type IV?
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know but I'm a real rattler at times. I played today anyway and it was much better. I haven't studied the embochure types. I had been using a Yamaha 11C4 but today I used a Constellation 5CW and a Bach 7 and they worked pretty well. 7C too.

Thanks for your concern.
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SkippySounds
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:13 pm    Post subject: Double Buzz Reply with quote

Hello everyone. Unfortunately I tend to play in spurts--I'll get some gigs, play a bunch, then stop for a while (from 1-3 months), then repeat.

I get this double buzz sometimes and see that a lot of people say it's from flabby chops. That could definitely be my case.

Any good recommendations for fixing this that aren't "rest." I'm back into a time when I need to play and so it's a bit of a Catch-22.

Thanks for any help.

--Shawn
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Double Buzz Reply with quote

SkippySounds wrote:
Hello everyone. Unfortunately I tend to play in spurts--I'll get some gigs, play a bunch, then stop for a while (from 1-3 months), then repeat.

I get this double buzz sometimes and see that a lot of people say it's from flabby chops. That could definitely be my case.

Any good recommendations for fixing this that aren't "rest." I'm back into a time when I need to play and so it's a bit of a Catch-22.

Thanks for any help.

--Shawn

Buzzing can get rid of a lot of that flabbiness. Doc advocated buzzing only the lips, no mouthpiece or instrument, as one of his daily calisthenics. Especially if you're a IIIB downstream player, there's nothing you can do away from the horn that will help you quite as much as buzzing your lips.
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This workout, done faithfully, took care of it for me:

[Edited by forum moderator]
Deleted link. We come here to find out about the teachings of D.S. Reinhardt.

Thanks!
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soulfire
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh wow, I'm way late to this party. I had the type IV (I'm a IVA) rattle pretty bad earlier this year. Free lip buzzing helped me get rid of it, apparently that is not the case for all of us. I still experience it every so often, but it is largely gone. I believe Dave Wilken posted earlier in this chain, but for anyone experiencing it, I'd highly encourage you to watch his video on free lip buzzing.
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