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C Cornet the Answer?



 
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om18
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Joined: 14 Sep 2018
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:43 am    Post subject: C Cornet the Answer? Reply with quote

Hello, I'm new to the forum. Played trumpet in high school and college. Took up fiddle as it gave more opportunity to play with others (in a less formal situation) So i find myself playing western swing (Bob Wills) and thinking of adding the cornet to this sound. I've tried with my old Bb trumpet but it's just not working, I've been rewired by the fiddle to think in concert pitch. I should add everything I play is by ear no sheet music.

Maybe the C cornet is the answer, at least in my mind it will line up easier.
Any advice from people who have been through this?
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Danbassin
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Location: Idyllwild, CA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: C Cornet the Answer? Reply with quote

om18 wrote:
Hello, I'm new to the forum. Played trumpet in high school and college. Took up fiddle as it gave more opportunity to play with others (in a less formal situation) So i find myself playing western swing (Bob Wills) and thinking of adding the cornet to this sound. I've tried with my old Bb trumpet but it's just not working, I've been rewired by the fiddle to think in concert pitch. I should add everything I play is by ear no sheet music.

Maybe the C cornet is the answer, at least in my mind it will line up easier.
Any advice from people who have been through this?


There are quite a few great C Cornets out there, but they're all specialty pro instruments, and they're not cheap. Some vintage instruments were built to play in C, as well as Bb/A (multiple tuning slides, stop rods, etc.)

However, if you've really homed-in on Concert Pitch --- why not think about the trumpet as a transposing instrument? I.E. - open is Bb (or F, etc.)? Tuba players do this all the time, thinking rather about "Bb" versus "C" or "F" or "Eb" FINGERINGS. This is aided and reinforced by the fact that they only read concert pitch music, but there's nothing keeping you from doing that with a Bb instrument, too - see a 3rd space (concert) C? Press down the first valve and blow!

Keep in mind that Chet Baker couldn't read music - was he thinking about Bb notes, or was he hearing which notes he needed to play, and then simply played them, having memorized the simple mechanics of our fingering system. Similarly, Bix Beiderbecke, the great dixieland cornetist was also a talented pianist...legend has it that he never knew the cornet was a transposing instrument - he just heard the pitches he needed to play, and he played them. Apparently, he also didn't bother learning that the fingerings change octave-by-octave, so he frequently played that third space concert C 1-3, just like he would an octave lower for middle (concert) c.

There are lots of possibilities, and the brain is far more flexible than a piece of metal - especially a piece of metal that you don't yet own.

Happy practicing,

-DB
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Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Picc;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD
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om18
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan, thanks for your reply. I understand your point and that is where I started the effort. Haven't given up on it (yet). When I play a tune on the fiddle I know the notes I'm playing. I'd like to go directly from fiddle to horn without the transposition step (currently it's a very slow process) and I know if I don't have to do the transposition things will go faster mentally for me.

Any other forum members understand what I'm talking about, can give advice?

Thanks
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Danbassin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

om18 wrote:
Dan, thanks for your reply. I understand your point and that is where I started the effort. Haven't given up on it (yet). When I play a tune on the fiddle I know the notes I'm playing. I'd like to go directly from fiddle to horn without the transposition step (currently it's a very slow process) and I know if I don't have to do the transposition things will go faster mentally for me.

Any other forum members understand what I'm talking about, can give advice?

Thanks


Not a cornet, but one suggestion I forgot to make is that CarolBrass makes a pocket C trumpet. Easily transportable, nice visual appeal, much cheaper than a Schilke or Blackburn or Yamaha or Monette C Cornet, and that could fit the bill...

-DB
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Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Picc;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD
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TKSop
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Joined: 23 Feb 2014
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you really want a C as the easier way to get this done, then get a C... but you'll find much more choice with C trumpets than C cornets (and by choice, we're talking both more models and more examples available, especially used)
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om18
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Joined: 14 Sep 2018
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for the replies.

It really comes down to price versus personal commitment and outcome. At this point I should not put a lot of money into it. So I'll change the question.


Does anyone care to suggest (from experience) a "C" instrument ... pocket, cornet, or trumpet ... that won't break the bank (under about $1000) and yet is a decent instrument? Used instruments are fine with me, actually prefer one to save some $'s.

One suggestion so far is the CarolBrass C Pocket.
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djpearlman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's one C trumpet on the TH marketplace now for 900.
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Dan Pearlman
Santa Fe, NM

- Monette Cornette
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5NafoVeXrsRm-fOhKaIpnA
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Irving
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Joined: 11 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would just get a Bb cornet, and get acustomed to playing instruments in Bb. A C cornet presents another set of problems, like finding a decent one that won't cost you a fortune. You can get a good cornet very cheaply if you buy used. Get yourself a Bb cornet, and just start working on scales, and your brain will figure it out. Practice transposing into C as well. Always remember what key you are in, on the cornet. Up a step and add two sharps to the key signature. You can do it.
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Danbassin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djpearlman wrote:
There's one C trumpet on the TH marketplace now for 900.


Yes - that Callet Symphonique is probably a great horn, and only happens to be at such a great price because of how narrowly selective the classical orchestral world happens to be: it doesn't look enough AND sound enough like a Bach/Yamaha to command the higher price.

That said, since it hasn't been mentioned here so far, Stravinsky's Soldier's Tale is essentially the reason C Cornets still exist, and also this ultra-niche for classical trumpeters means that these instruments are quite specialized and highly sought-after, particularly in the used market.

Under a grand for C Cornets, you're not likely to find anything beyond quite vintage C/Bb/A instruments, and make sure the shorter C tuning slide comes with! C trumpets, as has been discussed, can be found for this amount. I recall that Dillon Music in NJ has a tunable bell Getzen C for just under $900. Plus, you can frequently find high-quality French instruments (Selmer Radial, Couesnon, Courtois, etc.) at this price point on eBay, since those designs have fallen out of style with today's orchestral players.

There's a TH thread with good online resources to find used horns - some of these links are no longer current, but this will give you plenty to go on: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77366

-DB
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Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Picc;
Kromat C-Piccolo; Thein G-Piccolo; Various antique horns
MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD
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om18
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you everyone. I haven't given up on training my brain to get used to the Bb instrument. However I appreciate very much the suggestions for C instruments, maybe there is one out there for me. Your comments give me a lot to think about and that's good.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danbassin wrote:
... Stravinsky's Soldier's Tale is essentially the reason C Cornets still exist, and also this ultra-niche for classical trumpeters means that these instruments are quite specialized and highly sought-after, particularly in the used market.


I'm sure you know this, but for anyone not already acquainted with the subject - C cornets are a popular choice for some other things, such as the Mahler 3 posthorn solo. Additionally, as the trend towards paying strict attention (in a sense - modern instruments are all different than the period instruments composers actually wrote for) to what instrument an orchestral part was written for has advanced, playing a cornet for late 19th century orchestral repertoire has become increasingly common. (Lots in ballet and opera repertoire, for instance.) As that has happened, many players have elected to use C cornets for the same reasons they use C trumpets. Yamaha didn't make that new(ish) C cornet with a trumpet receiver just for playing L'Histoire.
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om18
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You spoke. I listened. Going to give my Bb trumpet a strong effort again.

Thanks everyone!
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