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Elgar Enigma: Trumpet in F?



 
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject: Elgar Enigma: Trumpet in F? Reply with quote

I'm looking at the 3rd trumpet part for Elgar's Engima Variations, and I'm wondering why the heck this is written for F trumpet. Does anyone ever play it on an F trumpet? You'd need a fourth valve to reach the low notes.

I intend to play it on a Bb trumpet. Even if the other two players are using C trumpets (which I doubt), I'd still need a fourth valve to get the low notes on a C trumpet, and I don't have a four-valve C trumpet.

I can't understand the reason for this being scored for F trumpet. First rehearsal is tonight, and maybe things will be clearer, but as a trumpet player with a composition/arranging education, this really looks like it ought to be written for Bb trumpet.

My other problem is the transposition itself; I don't think I've played this particular transposition (high F on a Bb) since Bordogni in the 1970's, if ever, and I've never performed it. But I understand that this is my own problem, nobody else's. It's been decades since I played in an orchestra, and it's going to be an adventure!
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LarsHusum
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this period of repertoire trumpet in F refers to a low F trumpet, which is pitched a fourth below a modern Bb trumpet.
This instrument were usually a small bore horn, and were the most common trumpet until the Bb came around 1880.
Many composers continued to write for low F trumpet, even though most trumpet players would play the parts on Bb trumpets.
The low F trumpet were still used some places up in the 20th century. I've even seen a picture of it being used in a Danish military orchestra for 3rd trumpet as late as 1939.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Elgar Enigma: Trumpet in F? Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
I'm looking at the 3rd trumpet part for Elgar's Engima Variations, and I'm wondering why the heck this is written for F trumpet. Does anyone ever play it on an F trumpet? You'd need a fourth valve to reach the low notes.

I intend to play it on a Bb trumpet. Even if the other two players are using C trumpets (which I doubt), I'd still need a fourth valve to get the low notes on a C trumpet, and I don't have a four-valve C trumpet.

I can't understand the reason for this being scored for F trumpet. First rehearsal is tonight, and maybe things will be clearer, but as a trumpet player with a composition/arranging education, this really looks like it ought to be written for Bb trumpet.

My other problem is the transposition itself; I don't think I've played this particular transposition (high F on a Bb) since Bordogni in the 1970's, if ever, and I've never performed it. But I understand that this is my own problem, nobody else's. It's been decades since I played in an orchestra, and it's going to be an adventure!


Hi,

I don't know the historical or theoretical reasons for this, I would also be interested to find out?

To answer your questions from a modern standpoint; nobody uses an F trumpet for that part, I've only ever seen that part played on Bb trumpet (F is a very common transposition; most commonly found in Mahler, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky and many others). Definitely one of the first keys to become adept at transposing into if you intend to do more orchestral work.

That particular part is not the most exciting, it must be said!

All the best

Edit: the second post only appeared after I had posted, some great information, thanks!
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LarsHusum wrote:
In this period of repertoire trumpet in F refers to a low F trumpet, which is pitched a fourth below a modern Bb trumpet.

No, in this piece, it's clearly for an F trumpet a fifth higher than a Bb, as confirmed by all four of the recordings I've listened to this week.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
LarsHusum wrote:
In this period of repertoire trumpet in F refers to a low F trumpet, which is pitched a fourth below a modern Bb trumpet.

No, in this piece, it's clearly for an F trumpet a fifth higher than a Bb, as confirmed by all four of the recordings I've listened to this week.


I think the instrument was pitched a fourth lower than modern Bb, but the writing was written at a pitch a fifth above Bb. They transposed up an octave on those old instruments.

Please someone correct me if I am wrong.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
LarsHusum wrote:
In this period of repertoire trumpet in F refers to a low F trumpet, which is pitched a fourth below a modern Bb trumpet.

No, in this piece, it's clearly for an F trumpet a fifth higher than a Bb, as confirmed by all four of the recordings I've listened to this week.


Yes, the transposition is up, but the pitch of the late 19th century F trumpet was lower. (Hence some of the low notes in that period that go off the standard range of the instrument, like the last note of the Mahler 5 opening that we never play.) They played a lower pitched instrument, but evidently played an octave displaced from the written pitch. You can read more about the low F trumpets here:

http://www.aswltd.com/rotary.htm
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doitallman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The choice for orchestration is entirely up to the composer. He can say piccolo trumpet if thats the sound or range or timbre he wants. Why he scored it for F trumpet is not the question to ask. There could be a number of reasons.
Yes play it on Bb..I do on that particular part.
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Gabrieli
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason Elgar scored for f trumpet is very simple. At the time of its composition (1898) British orchestras were still playing the long f trumpet.

Even when Ernest Hall (1890-1984) studied at the Royal College of Music ca. 1910 he was taught on the f trumpet and he did not dare tell his teacher that he played the "high" Bb trumpet on gigs outside the college. FYI the legendary Ernest Hall was principal trumpet first in the LSO and then in the BBC Symphony.

I would love to hear Enigma on the instruments Elgar knew and wrote for: f piston horns, f trumpets. small bore trombones and f tuba.
Not as loud as modern instruments but with a much richer overtone spectrum.

Who cares about a few split notes?
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Athos
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case this is helpful, we're playing the piece on our season-opening concert tonight. I am playing the 3rd part, and am playing it entirely on C trumpet. The part never goes before a low F# concert. B-flat trumpet is certainly acceptable if you prefer it, but I like the low register on my C just fine.
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rogertpt
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing in F trumpet is not common.

Just think of it as bass clef up a step
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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rogertpt wrote:
Playing in F trumpet is not common.

Just think of it as bass clef up a step


.... Yeah so all those Debussy, Mahler, Bruckner, Wagner etc. parts are just goofing you man.

Seriously?????!?!?!?!
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rogertpt wrote:
Playing in F trumpet is not common.

Just think of it as bass clef up a step


Probably in line for the least accurate statement on the trumpet herald....
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rogertpt wrote:
Playing in F trumpet is not common.

Just think of it as bass clef up a step

Alternatively, you could just transpose up the correct interval and play the right notes for this rather common transposition...
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Brian Moore
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
rogertpt wrote:
Playing in F trumpet is not common.

Just think of it as bass clef up a step

Alternatively, you could just transpose up the correct interval and play the right notes for this rather common transposition...

I remember seeing a part for Meistersingers Overture, which is labelled "Trompete in B", having every single note written in, in pen, transposed up a semitone. Perhaps they just lipped it back down...

I've actually got a trumpet in orchestral F - a beast to play, but it can be done - did Mahler 2 on it once. Very lovely when you get it right.

But yes, F trumpet is a very standard transposition. Mahler 5 keeps jumping between Bb & F, so you have to keep your wits about you, especially for the bits which look like they are for F trumpet, being quite low in the range for Bb.
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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Brian Moore"]
Andy Del wrote:
rogertpt wrote:
Playing in F trumpet is not common.

Just think of it as bass clef up a step

part for Meistersingers Overture, which is labelled "Trompete in B", having every single note written in, in pen, transposed up a semitone. Perhaps they just lipped it..


German B is Bb. If the part was in B natural it would be labeled as H.
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Brian Moore
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="trumpet_cop"]
Brian Moore wrote:
Andy Del wrote:
rogertpt wrote:
Playing in F trumpet is not common.

Just think of it as bass clef up a step

part for Meistersingers Overture, which is labelled "Trompete in B", having every single note written in, in pen, transposed up a semitone. Perhaps they just lipped it..


German B is Bb. If the part was in B natural it would be labeled as H.

Indeed, hence my amusement.
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