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JetJaguar
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1518
Location: Vancouver, BC
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 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:31 pm Post subject: Olds Recording Remake |
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There seem to be quite a few remakes of the Martin Committee. Schilke, Lawler, Kanstul, and maybe others I can't think of. Why aren't there any of the Olds Recording? I can think of three possible reasons:
1. Supply and demand. Recordings are plentiful in the used market. The demand for Recordings is not greater than the current supply.
2. Lack of demand, period. Recordings just aren't sought after like Committees. The hype on web forums like TH and TM is overblown.
3. They are difficult to reproduce. No one can figure out how to reproduce them. There aren't obvious features like an unusual bell taper, step bore, etc. The secret sauce has been lost.
What do you think? Or any other reasons?
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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tptva004
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Joined: 23 Sep 2018
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| well 1 or 2 is more than enough from a business perspective... in all seriousness, i'm sure #3 is not true. lots of talented horn makers out there! |
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JetJaguar
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1518
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| tptva004 wrote: | | well 1 or 2 is more than enough from a business perspective... in all seriousness, i'm sure #3 is not true. lots of talented horn makers out there! |
Thanks for the response. I'm not asserting that my three proposed reasons are all true, or that any of them are. Just asking if anyone holds one or more of them.
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com
Last edited by JetJaguar on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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shofarguy
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7010
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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The obvious company to reproduce the Olds Recording is Kanstul. I've thought it would be good for them to do it and maybe the Mendez as sort of a Heritage Line to go with the 1603 and 991.
Any secrets are either in the Kanstul archives or with Dale Olsen, who is still a close friend of the factory and Kanstul family.
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Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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tptva004
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Joined: 23 Sep 2018
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: | | The obvious company to reproduce the Olds Recording is Kanstul. |
yep that makes sense to me too! |
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Goby
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Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Posts: 648
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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BAC in Kansas City makes an Olds Recording reproduction. Pretty sure they've got the original bell mandrel too.
Part of the magic in the Olds Recording is the big bell throat, which can be found on many modern horns. |
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JetJaguar
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1518
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Goby wrote: | BAC in Kansas City makes an Olds Recording reproduction. Pretty sure they've got the original bell mandrel too.
Part of the magic in the Olds Recording is the big bell throat, which can be found on many modern horns. |
Thanks, but I can't seem to find that Olds Recording repro on the web. Do you have a link please?
thanks
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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so what
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Joined: 13 Oct 2004
Posts: 617
Location: near Dallas
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:23 am Post subject: |
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There was a pretty close copy of an Olds Recording that appeared on eBay about a year ago or so. Someone had it made, by Kanstul.
I posted a thread about this horn on TH a good while back in 2008. The link to a picture of the trumpet is gone though.
The same trumpet appeared later on eBay. I don't remember if it sold. Looked very nice, though.
Mark Walberg |
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WFUnix
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Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 433
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| so what wrote: | There was a pretty close copy of an Olds Recording that appeared on eBay about a year ago or so. Someone had it made, by Kanstul.
I posted a thread about this horn on TH a good while back in 2008. The link to a picture of the trumpet is gone though.
The same trumpet appeared later on eBay. I don't remember if it sold. Looked very nice, though.
Mark Walberg |
You can see the link here, however no pictures unfortunately. https://web.archive.org/web/20100501141600/http://jazzgeeks.com/art_oldsrecording.htm |
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Brad361
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Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| so what wrote: | There was a pretty close copy of an Olds Recording that appeared on eBay about a year ago or so. Someone had it made, by Kanstul.
I posted a thread about this horn on TH a good while back in 2008. The link to a picture of the trumpet is gone though.
The same trumpet appeared later on eBay. I don't remember if it sold. Looked very nice, though.
Mark Walberg |
I saw that same ad, if I remember correctly the owner was asking like 4500 for it, because it was a “new Olds Recording.” I have a ‘65 Recording, it’s a great horn, but personally I would never pay anywhere near that price for one, whether it was recently built by Kanstul or not. I do also realize that mine is a Fullerton, the LA horns allegedly are even better...depending on who you ask.
Brad
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When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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Tony Scodwell
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Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 1961
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:31 am Post subject: Olds Recording Model |
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Charley Davis has an exact copy of the Olds Recording made from original new/old stock parts complete with all the engraving. I'm not sure if he plans on making a series of them but the first one he did is a beauty. The original tooling including bell mandrel is at Kanstul and when Olds went under years ago, Allied Supply bought all remaining parts. Last time I checked with them, they even had Mendez trumpet and cornet bells in stock.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
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LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12657
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Olds Recording Model |
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| Goby wrote: | | BAC in Kansas City makes an Olds Recording reproduction. Pretty sure they've got the original bell mandrel too. |
| Tony Scodwell wrote: | Charley Davis has an exact copy of the Olds Recording made from original new/old stock parts complete with all the engraving. I'm not sure if he plans on making a series of them but the first one he did is a beauty. The original tooling including bell mandrel is at Kanstul and when Olds went under years ago, Allied Supply bought all remaining parts. Last time I checked with them, they even had Mendez trumpet and cornet bells in stock.
Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com |
When I read Goby's post I thought that I remembered Kanstul had the mandrel.
From what I have read, Kanstul has had the forsight to collect tooling as other manufacturers went out of business. |
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Walter Bone
Regular Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2018
Posts: 36
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:31 am Post subject: |
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I think the issue, when reproducing those magic horns from the past, is more about the brass alloys (or whatever metal is used) avaible today vs those available then.
For a company is risky to put out a repro since even if it's an excellent horn it will be inevitably compared to the original, and even if 90% of it is there it will be criticized for the 10% that's not there.
An exception that comes to my mind is the Adams A6: it's based on the Connstellation, and original ones are widely available on the used market. But like the A9 (Committee) it's not really a reproduction but more their take on the original design. |
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shofarguy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7010
Location: AZ
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:13 am Post subject: |
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| Walter Bone wrote: | I think the issue, when reproducing those magic horns from the past, is more about the brass alloys (or whatever metal is used) avaible today vs those available then.
For a company is risky to put out a repro since even if it's an excellent horn it will be inevitably compared to the original, and even if 90% of it is there it will be criticized for the 10% that's not there.
An exception that comes to my mind is the Adams A6: it's based on the Connstellation, and original ones are widely available on the used market. But like the A9 (Committee) it's not really a reproduction but more their take on the original design. |
Walter,
Your mention of different alloys is an interesting one. There have been assertions, over the years here on TH, that the brass used to make the Martin Committees of the 1940s and 50s was special because of it being war surplus or something else, making it impossible to reproduce.
Byron Autrey used to discuss with me his research and opinions about early Besson instruments, which he believed were made from copper ore that had less impurities than what is being mined today, allowing a higher ratio of zinc to be used which meant bells could be made thinner and more resonant.
On the other hand, I have sat and listened to a single player play identically designed instruments with drastically different bell materials, such as 60/40 brass and 100% copper, which were hard to distinguish one from the other.
In the end, I have heard much more variance from "identical" mouthpieces of different eras than bells, from lead pipes and especially tuning slides.
I have also played a prime example of the Holy Grail #3 Martin Committee and a new Kanstul 1603 and heard and felt little to no differences between them. I've also played a vintage Benge 3X+ beside a new Burbank 3X+ and found them to be noticeably different, though the new horn is said to be a continuation of the old.
What gives?
I believe tooling is one answer. Mandrels and bits, dies and jigs wear out and are replaced, over time. Techniques and machinery develop and change. The personnel making the instruments change.
The other factor that I have come to believe bolsters our belief in the superiority of a previous era is the aging process and its effect on a given horn. It is thought that, over decades, molecules that were stressed by manufacturing relax and realign, giving the instrument a confident ease that probably wasn't there when it was new.
_________________
Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Walter Bone
Regular Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2018
Posts: 36
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| shofarguy wrote: |
I believe tooling is one answer. Mandrels and bits, dies and jigs wear out and are replaced, over time. Techniques and machinery develop and change. The personnel making the instruments change.
The other factor that I have come to believe bolsters our belief in the superiority of a previous era is the aging process and its effect on a given horn. It is thought that, over decades, molecules that were stressed by manufacturing relax and realign, giving the instrument a confident ease that probably wasn't there when it was new. |
100%.
On a less technical note, I might add as bolstering factor the players that we associate with vintage horns, and their (of the players) personal sound.
In general I can say every trumpet player with a hearth misses the lively cultural milieu that supported the industry and gave birth to such wonderful and legendary instruments, pushed the research and the craftsmanship to a peak very difficult to reproduce.
But if one lets the brain kick in, he'll realize that we have many awesome horns being made in our time. They're just different. And that, in general, for intruments built in Asia, we pay less for quality (think CarolBrass, or Schagler). |
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JetJaguar
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1518
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Now that Tony Scodwell has contributed, It would be wonderful to hear from some other horn designers about the challenges of remaking a Recording, like Flip Oakes., Jason Harrelson., Ewan Divitt, etc.
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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nieuwguyski
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 2346
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Olds made a bazillion Recordings, most with excellent QC. A lot still exist, many in reasonably good condition.
It's cheaper to buy a used Recording in decent condition and spend whatever it takes to have it restored, by a top brass tech, to essentially new condition, than pay for a boutique "re-creation."
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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