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ohnecael
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Tongue arch? Reply with quote

I've been having clinicians tell me about tongue arch to improve upper register and they never really elaborated upon that. Ive heard it thrown around a lot and its never been taught to me properly by a private lessons teacher either.
So can someone here tell me what the basics of it are and maybe books that could help explain it more thorughly?
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patdublc
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kind of hate to over simplify a response on tongue arch, but perhaps others will elaborate and give you more of what you're seeking.
Here's my take - when you arch your tongue, you reduce the size of the oral cavity and therefore, the supported air volume that is flowing through the oral cavity increases in velocity. Faster air reaching a properly formed embouchure will generate faster vibrations, and hence a higher pitch.

But, that is NOT the only way to play higher. Plenty of players can really scream without using an arched tongue.

I'm sure entire dissertations have been done on this topic so don't read too much into such a short interpretation. Reach out to somebody like Pops or Jeanne Pocius for some detailed advice.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of the problem is that people hear arch and they try arching and it doesn't work. They think of just raising a part of the tongue. If you can whistle, you can get a feeling of how it works. But it also depends on what instrument and mouthpiece you use. The arch changes with each factor changing. So what you have to discover is how it works for you.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on the subject is that some, not all embouchures are variously sympathetic to the arching of the tongue. Folks have different ideas of how it actually makes a difference:
- Change in oral cavity
- Change in air-speed
- Change in size of the air column
- Change in air direction hitting the embouchure
- Peripheral changes to the embouchure when the tongue raises
...
I suspect it may be a combination of some of the above.

And as has been said, I have no problem accepting that some players have embouchures not particularly sympathetic to the arching of the tongue. and that many succeed without it.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Tongue arch? Reply with quote

ohnecael wrote:
I've been having clinicians tell me about tongue arch to improve upper register and they never really elaborated upon that. Ive heard it thrown around a lot and its never been taught to me properly by a private lessons teacher either.
So can someone here tell me what the basics of it are and maybe books that could help explain it more thorughly?


Everyone uses tongue arch. You can't play very well if you don't use any. The difference is how well you use it, and whether you know how to shift the balance towards the tongue so as to take some of the effort off the embouchure.

Do you know how to squirt water out of your mouth using your tongue? Try it and watch carefully what your tongue is doing. The tip of the tongue is actually down, and as the volume of water in the mouth decrease, the arch of the tongue shifts forwards in the mouth, so that the pocket of space between tongue and teeth gets smaller. Something very similar happens when you use tongue arch throughout the range of the instrument.

I still don't completely understand the physics of it, but it works. Like cheiden said above, there's probably several things that it causes to change, but whatever they are, it has a definite effect.
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Bolvin's book "Tongue Level and Air" is a good place to start.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there!

I realize the images down below look interesting and you might be tempted to click on the videos right away. But please read what I've written first as it will explain some stuff I think it would helpful to know before you watch the videos.

Whistle from a low note to a higher note and notice how your tongue arches up and forward from an "aw" (as in the word "saw") position to an "ee" (as in the word "sea") position.

Your tongue does the same when we ascend into the upper register on trumpet, especially on the notes above the staff. Note that the tongue will also be arched more on a particular note (for instance a G at the top of the staff) when that note is played softly, and it will flatten down a bit when that note is crescendoed (because if it remained arched while you blew stronger, the note would climb up to the next higher partial (the Bb played open position in this case).

Most players who struggle to reach the notes around High C and above are not arching their tongues properly when going for the higher notes. Some don't arch at all, and these are the players who will go for a High C but have it "crack" down to the Bb instead. Others arch their tongues improperly, arching them up but back toward the back of their mouths when trying to play high notes, cutting off the air, and therefore the sound. These are the players who complain that their "throat closes" or of "throat tension" when trying to play high notes. Sometimes you can even hear these players physically grunting when straining to play high notes. If a weight lifter strains and grunts improperly as he tries to lift a heavy weight over his head, it's not the right way to do it, but he'll still probably succeed. If a brass playing arches his tongue wrong, straining and grunting and cutting off the air when trying to play a high notes, well, it's over before it could even begin!

Take 12 minutes and watch this very good video produced by DW Germany featuring Sarah Willis, a French Horn player with the Berlin Philharmonic being observed in an MRI machine as she plays, showing how she arches her tongue for the higher notes.

Here’s a link to the exact spot on one of the videos from the research that shows how the tongue arches when reaching into the extreme high register:

https://youtu.be/MWcOwgWsPHA?t=1m44s

Here’s a link to that whole video:


Link


And here is a link to the video German TV Station DW Germany produced about the research:


Link


If you're in a hurry, skip to 9:10 on the video by clicking on the link below:

https://youtu.be/ctyzYXd6HNw?t=9m10s

A few last important points:

• Knowing about proper tongue arch is good and helpful - but only if one follows up on that gained knowledge by practicing correctly to get the "feel" or "knack" of how to properly arch the tongue as one plays. To do this, practice typical "Lip Flexibility" exercises (which perhaps can more accurately be called "Tongue Level" exercises") and as you play the exercises, pay attention to how the tongue arches and one blows stronger when going up, and how the tongue flattens down and one blows easier when going down through the notes in the exercises. My teacher Claude Gordon and a stamp he'd use to stamp on every page of any flexibility exercise or range exercise he assigned up so practice. The stamp said, "Watch the Tongue". What he meant was to pay attention and learn from the tongue how it needs to arch when going up and flatten when descending in range. He used to say, "Pay attention to your tongue and learn from it - it'll teach you more than you'll ever teach it."

• Learning to incorporate proper tongue arch into your playing will help you to reach the notes you are physically capable of playing, meaning it will help you gain perhaps somewhere around a major third to a fourth in your range with time. But you will still be limited by whatever level of physical strength you have (in terms of blowing strength and embouchure strength). But with time and the proper playing exercises to develop more strength, even more range can be acquired.

I see you are in Fort Wayne. I am in Chicago and available for private lessons, either in person or via Skype if you'd like my help.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patdublc wrote:
Quote:
Here's my take - when you arch your tongue, you reduce the size of the oral cavity and therefore, the supported air volume that is flowing through the oral cavity increases in velocity. Faster air reaching a properly formed embouchure will generate faster vibrations, and hence a higher pitch.


Your take is an erroneous and mythical explanation.

The aperture posture must change to produce a higher frequency tone. The tongue moves in conjunction with certain embouchure muscle involvement. It is related to the primary functions of the mouth and lips which is eating, and is related to the rejection of unwanted material from the tract such as seeds or other objectionable debris.

It is very unnatural for us to make a small aperture using the inner corners without the coordinated forward tongue movement.

THAT is why we arch the tongue as we ascend. (Some more than others depending on embouchure style and other factors.)

It has nothing to do with air velocity as the cause of pitch.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
patdublc wrote:
Quote:
Here's my take - when you arch your tongue, you reduce the size of the oral cavity and therefore, the supported air volume that is flowing through the oral cavity increases in velocity. Faster air reaching a properly formed embouchure will generate faster vibrations, and hence a higher pitch.


Your take is an erroneous and mythical explanation.

The aperture posture must change to produce a higher frequency tone. The tongue moves in conjunction with certain embouchure muscle involvement. It is related to the primary functions of the mouth and lips which is eating, and is related to the rejection of unwanted material from the tract such as seeds or other objectionable debris.

It is very unnatural for us to make a small aperture using the inner corners without the coordinated forward tongue movement.

THAT is why we arch the tongue as we ascend. (Some more than others depending on embouchure style and other factors.)

It has nothing to do with air velocity as the cause of pitch.


So says one man... Readers should note that Darryl's opinions on this matter are not in keeping with the general point of view of the vast majority of the world's brass playing experts, and his opinion that "[t]he tongue moves in conjunction with certain embouchure muscle involvement", implying that the tongue is basically just along for the ride, is not backed by what in known in the biological field of Anatomy and Physiology. The tongue can and does move and behave independently of facial muscle manipulation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcOwgWsPHA&feature=youtu.be&t=1m44s

Honestly Darryl, if you can look at the footage in the link above and watch about 20 seconds of it culminating in the sustained high note at about 2:03 and still cling to your opinion regarding tongue arch (that the tongue is only reacting to what the lips muscles / mouth corners are doing and not at all casual in the production of high notes), you will be the most dogmatic person I have ever had the pleasure of being acquainted with. I mean no animosity, and as I have said before, you have posted great material and been of help to many here on the TH. But I urge you to think this subject through some more!

Sincerely,

John Mohan
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patdublc wrote:
Plenty of players can really scream without using an arched tongue.


With respect, while it’s true many players think they don't arch their tongues when playing the higher notes, that does not necessarily mean they really don’t. Not only was Sarah Willis one of these people who didn’t think they arched their tongues, but Maurice Andre also claimed the same – he insisted he kept his tongue flat in his mouth to get a nice, open sound - that is, until he was shocked to see his own tongue arching on the fluoroscopic films that were part of the research John Haynie conducted in the 1960's. Andre was one of the participants in Haynie’s research study, as was my teacher Claude Gordon. When Maurice Andre saw his tongue arching on the X-ray motion picture Claude told me that Andre explained, “Oh my God!” Sarah Willis can also be seen showing surprise on one of the videos I posted a link to earlier in this discussion when she sees her tongue arching. She was another top-level professional player who like Maurice Andre, had no idea what her tongue was doing.

To date, no one has been observed to be able to play the upper register (notes above high C) without arching the tongue. Every participant in every fluoroscopic (X-ray) or MRI study to date, regardless of what they believed they were doing, has indeed arched his or her tongue when playing the higher notes.

From pages 82 and 83 of the book "Trumpet Technique" by Frank Gabriel Campos, published by Oxford University Press, ISBN number 978-0-19-516693-4:

Quote:
Working with Alexander F. Finlay, a radiologist in Denton, Texas, Haynie used a fluoroscope and one of the earliest videotape recorders to document jaw position, teeth and jaw aperture, tongue arching, pivot, mouthpiece pressure, position of tongue for attack, [and] position of tongue for double and triple tonguing. (Haynie 1968, 7)

...Over a five-year period, beginning with still photography and moving to 16 mm film with a real-to-reel audiotape that had to be manually synchronized with the movie, Haynie observed the performance technique of over seventy University of North Texas students and a number of professional performers, including Maurice Andre, Gerard Schwarz and the members of the American Brass Quintet, Richard Giangiulio (former principal of the Dallas Symphony), and big band leader Claude Gordon.

French trumpet virtuoso Maurice Andre was astounded: he was completely unaware that the tongue arched to produce changes in register. Like many of the world's finest players, he just did it without thinking. According to Haynie, few of the study participants had an opinion about the actions of their tongue and no one could describe exactly what happened inside the oral cavity. It is interesting to note that many of the poorer players improved by observing and imitating the action of the tongues of the finest players as demonstrated in the videotape. [emphasis added]


I take no issue with the rest of what you wrote in your post (the parts I did not quote here), with the possible exception of you recommending the OP contact Pops or Jeanne, but not me.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is nothing about the video that disproves what I stated earlier. The lips are changing and the aperture is becoming stiffer and smaller to ascend to higher pitches. This action with the embouchure muscles requires that the tongue move forward for the player to be comfortable and natural. There is nothing dogmatic about my view and it does not require any complicated air "science* especially those based on bad science. It is a simple explanation, it is the "seed -spitting" reflex.

It would be incorrect to assume that the lips in the video are not changing as the pitch ascends. It would also be faulty logic to assume that the position of the tongue determines the size of the aperture for ANY pitch especially since it is easy to see in the video that the oral air path is OBVIOUSLY larger than the aperture inside the mouthpiece for the notes played.

If you could get the aperture to perform in exactly the same way without tongue movement the results would be exactly the same. But in practice our mouths are not "designed" to make such aperture effort without the tongue naturally moving forward as if expelling debris. The body is designed to survive. And the mouth is designed for ingesting food and expelling refuse in that process. It is an arrogant view to believe that the mouth is designed inherently to play a brass instrument and that the tongues inherent function is to directly determine the size of a pulsating aperture and the resulting pitch while playing a modern trumpet.

So tongue arch has nothing to do with; air speed, air compression, air power, air "focus"or any other popular "explanations" (that is, popular myths) by the "experts". I would also be happy to debunk any of the "experts" science explanation and I have done so many times.
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area51recording
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDK.....smells like a 6 pager to me.....
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well at least!

Seriously, if it grows much more it won't be because of me. I'll let Darryl have the last word. The readers can all make up their own minds. To Darryl (and anybody else interested), I only want to make sure I didn't lead anyone to conclude that I think the lips have nothing to do with it. They are certainly part of the equation.

Cheers,

John
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scottfsmith
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wherever the thread goes, watch the video!! Pretty amazing stuff, thanks John.

One thing I found particularly interesting is how the back of the tongue is forming a channel by being relatively higher at the sides than the middle. It makes perfect sense that such a channeling would help with high notes, but I had never seen it before. The double tonguing is also very cool to watch.

I recently have gotten better playing above high C with a little exercise of playing a low note like middle C very loud, and then slurring up to the highest note you can squeak at the lowest volume you can play, changing both volume and pitch at the same time. The effect of this exercise is you will be moving your tongue way up instinctually to get that quiet note out, and it will help get the tongue arch thing going better.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The effect of this exercise is you will be moving your tongue way up instinctually to get that quiet note out, and it will help get the tongue arch thing going better.


Not to mention it gets the lip position thing going better. See, as you use very high aperture muscle effort on those highest notes the tongue naturally moves up and forward. But the tongue itself is no direct cause of pitch change. Only the state of the aperture determines the pitch played.

If you move the tongue without the coordinated change at aperture there is no change in pitch.

A drastic arch also adds more significant resistance to the air path. This is part of the reason that very high notes are dynamically softer for those that require an extreme tongue position.

Quote:
One thing I found particularly interesting is how the back of the tongue is forming a channel by being relatively higher at the sides than the middle. It makes perfect sense that such a channeling would help with high notes


Why would this make sense? The air only needs a path to the aperture, which is ALREADY much smaller than the path through the oral space. The more narrow the path the more air resistance there is and the more the air pressure is reduced before it reaches the aperture. The size and state of the aperture are determined by the muscles of the aperture and nothing else.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
The air only needs a path to the aperture, which is ALREADY much smaller than the path through the oral space. The more narrow the path the more air resistance there is and the more the air pressure is reduced before it reaches the aperture..


If you look at the Hickman Pedagogy book (a good place to get a summary of the general consensus today on tongue arch) you will see that the tongue is generally arched more in the front for the highest notes and is in fact arched down in the back (and channeled it appears). If you want to see actual data measurements using MRI on real trumpet players, read this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167945715000901 This article shows how the tongue position changes on lower vs higher notes on various brass instruments.

OK thats the what, the tongue is clearly moving in ways that appear similar across different professional players. Now as to the why, there has not much research on that topic but most researchers believe for the trumpet high notes it is increasing the overall pressure. For example, the above article at the end hypothesizes the following:

Quote:
In addition, from a fluid-mechanical perspective it can be hypothesized that the shaping of the oral cavity might play a role in supporting the required intra-oral pressure and air flow conditions during tone production in brass instruments. The combination of intra-oral pressure and air flow has shown to be dependent on instrument (Bouhuys, 1964), and within instruments, dependent on pitch and dynamic level (Bouhuys, 1964, Fréour et al., 2010). Generally, larger instruments (e.g., the tuba) require a larger air flow, whereas smaller instruments (e.g., the trumpet) require a higher intra-oral pressure. Within instruments, pressure and air flow have been shown to increase with increasing dynamic level, whereas increasing pitch is accompanied by an increase of pressure and a decrease of air flow (Fréour et al., 2010). This might explain the observed tendencies that larger instruments and low registers are associated with larger oral cavities in order to support a large air flow, whereas high pressures in the high pitch range might be easier to obtain by narrowing the anterior part of the oral cavity. To date, the role of the oral cavity has hardly been explored in this respect. MRI measurements as presented here can contribute to a more complete understanding of such issues.

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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Now as to the why, there has not much research on that topic but most researchers believe for the trumpet high notes it is increasing the overall pressure.


No. Most researchers do NOT believe that. Anyone who actually understands air science would never make such a claim.

The air pressure in the oral space is never greater than what the lungs provide. And arching will never increase that pressure.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Anyone who actually understands air science would never make such a claim.


To be clear, I'm just summarizing the text of the article I quoted, this line in particular:

Quote:

whereas high pressures in the high pitch range might be easier to obtain by narrowing the anterior part of the oral cavity.


The physics here is complex and I don't claim to understand it, but one thing you are leaving out is that a constriction by raising the front of the tongue will help slow the airflow which will decrease friction which will raise the pressure. Or, some other factor could be in play.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think of having my tongue higher at the front of the mouth to play high.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello kalijah,
Glad to see were still debating and discussing the same stuff as the last time I stopped by. I believe I saw somewhere that you stated that there was no way that the mouth developed resistance/compression. Resistance was developed in the instrument in the mouthpiece I think is what was stated. So I have a couple questions.

Where is the compression needed to spit the seed coming from?

Is there greater compression or pressure in the mouth when we breathe out in a Yawn as uposed to through a Tiny little aperture?

In order to get air to go further as we attempt to blow out a birthday candle we use a smaller aperture. The smaller aperture tends to direct the airstream. I certainly will concede that it is possible that there is not a greater or lesser volume of air escaping. But due to the smaller aperture it would seem that we do develop faster air.

The directionality and speed of the air is greater controlled when we engage the shape and position of our tongue.

Simple demonstration everybody can do:

Leave the tongue low in your mouth open your mouth very wide and breathe out like you’re fogging a mirror but as quickly as you possibly can.

My conclusion is that my tongue is flat in my mouth and the air has no real or appreciable velocity behind it.

Leave the tongue low in your mouth form and O and blowout.

My conclusion is that the tongue now it’s starting to engage in forming a shape. We also sense a greater velocity to the air.

Finally create a small aperture and blowout.

It seems like my tongue is helping direct the air but moreover I have far greater control over my exhale. I have created resistance in my mouth. This resistance is not coming from the trumpet or the throat/bore of the mouthpiece. Therefore we are able to create resistance with our mouth. It would seem that this resistance then requires greater pressure to move air through the lips. Some may call it compression some may call it pressure we can argue till the cows come home that the compression can only be made by the exhale in our body. I think the control mechanism is in our mouth. I believe that our mouth is creating resistance that demands the build up of compression.

So in a non-scientific way this is how trumpet players feel they are generating compression because they are developing some resistance in their mouth and they are directing air with their tongue. So it is easy for the Layman to simply state that they are developing compression in their mouth. A statement that’s not necessarily incorrect. I realize your contention is that when someone states they are developing compression with their mouth. I think that it could be argued that they are creating that compression with their mouth and it builds up in their mouth so therefore there is greater compression in their mouth as a result of what their mouth just did.

Even though the compression is from the exhale greater compression is needed because the mouth just created resistance. (I wait for the awesome explanation that is to follow)

I think the tongue is key to being able to play in all registers but far more important is its position in the upper register. I am not sure that it is more associated with the position of our mouth/lips or our jaw up, down and forward. To me it is irrelevant as it is a mechanic that has to work correct in order for the player to be able to get the airstream correct for the proper Xhale that vibrates their lips in all registers and specifically the extreme upper register.

However one wants to describe it is absolutely fine with me the bottom line is if our tongue isn’t properly engaged for us as a player in the approach that we are using our results will not be as optimal.

Best,

Jon
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Last edited by rufflicks on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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