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Why the Big Bands Died


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area51recording
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
area51recording wrote:

THIS post illustrates the difference between being a PRO and being a poser that nails double c's and lip trills in your Mom's basement, IMO.....


Blessed are the poor in spirit.


Care to explain what THIS is about? Am I "poor in spirit" because I feel a professional musician has an imperative to give the audience what it wants above my own preferences? If you mean something else, please amplify on your comment. I'd love to know what it might be that you are talking about.....
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gstump
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I read Eric Felten's article and there was 10 minutes of my life I will never get back. His obsession with Stand Kenton is in reality a forced example to support his failed premise.

He does skim over the real reasons the Big Dance Bands lost their popular culture status: The Petrillo strike and the move of the singers from sitting in a chair to up front star status. That along with electric amplification and the die was cast.

I played with Buddy Rich in the 70s. Buddy would not play for dancers and had no vocalist (except him Bein' Green). I made around $180 a week playing split lead under Lin Biviono. Big Band Jazz was more like poetry in the pop ratings of the fine arts.

It is much easier for the masses to appreciate a great song with actual words than a great Sal Nestico arrangement.

Leave Stan alone!!
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Speed
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a really good point about the vocalists.

I have a theory about that. If you have a vocalist, all you have to do to make the song move along is to have different words to each verse. Each verse can have exactly the same melody and harmony, but as long as the lyrics change with each verse, the song keeps the audience's interest, all other things being equal.

To keep up that same level of audience interest for a band without a vocalist, the arranger and soloists have to get creative with phrasing, melody, harmony, etc. Otherwise, they're just playing the same turnaround over and over again. I have to believe an audience would tire of that pretty quickly, no matter how dance-able the music might be.

I don't mean to diminish the role of a great vocalist, like Sinatra or Ellington. The great ones change their phrasing, etc. from verse to verse, along with the lyrics; but it seems to me that a band without a singer has to really be on their toes to keep the audience interested, particularly a big band.

I've heard that Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett almost never sang a song the same way twice. I suspect that habit kept their bands on their toes as well!
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

area51recording wrote:
delano wrote:
area51recording wrote:

THIS post illustrates the difference between being a PRO and being a poser that nails double c's and lip trills in your Mom's basement, IMO.....


Blessed are the poor in spirit.


Care to explain what THIS is about? Am I "poor in spirit" because I feel a professional musician has an imperative to give the audience what it wants above my own preferences? If you mean something else, please amplify on your comment. I'd love to know what it might be that you are talking about.....


I'd love to know what it might be that you are talking about.....[/quote]

I doubt this.
Your statement has no beginning and no end.
First, the one you are referring to is not a pro nor is his attitude (see for that down under second). The first thing a pro must do is fulfilling the thing he is hired for. If that is pleasing an audience, ok. Most pro's I know play a lot in a studio without an audience. They play what is written and often don't know the final result let be that it will please an audience.
Second, the other side of a pro is not a poser, screaming double C's in the basement but on the contrary somebody who did not have the motivation to play everything in front of him for some bucks but chooses to play what he likes and is earning his money in an other way. The main difference being to play for bread or for fun. So the pro and the poser in your statement do not exist and my conclusion is that you have no idea. But because you seem to be quite happy with that I concluded that the poor in spirit are blessed. Still I am not sure you'll love this all.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lot of answers here but missing one:

Maybe the people were completely fed up with the bigband sound as something ancient and boring, something from their parents lives.
In fact nobody likes the sound and the kind of music of a bigband anymore except some very old people with memories and of course musicians, especially high blowers on the trumpet, almost their only spot to glow.
For the record, I am 70 years old and never understood why people loved or even liked the music of bigbands. For myself I know only two exceptions, Duke Ellington and Gil Evans, they are great. And I like the sound of ancient dance bands like Paul Whiteman, Fletcher Henderson and even Glenn Miller. But that's more for the sound, very nostalgic and not possible anymore.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Lot of answers here but missing one:

Maybe the people were completely fed up with the bigband sound as something ancient and boring, something from their parents lives.
In fact nobody likes the sound and the kind of music of a bigband anymore except some very old people with memories and of course musicians, especially high blowers on the trumpet, almost their only spot to glow.
For the record, I am 70 years old and never understood why people loved or even liked the music of bigbands. For myself I know only two exceptions, Duke Ellington and Gil Evans, they are great. And I like the sound of ancient dance bands like Paul Whiteman, Fletcher Henderson and even Glenn Miller. But that's more for the sound, very nostalgic and not possible anymore.


Maybe your´e on the right track!? Why does music appeal to us? From my viewpoint it does so if it succeeds in touching a string in your mind - evokes feelings/memories/what now. Communication. If I fancy a certain song, well I might be alone; but if many people fancies the same song, or even songs of the same genre, then we have the seed to something bigger - could spread becoming a "national scourge" (=I can´t find the adequate english word). As in "Getting sentimental over you", "And the Angels Sing", "I can´t get started" - "American Patrol" you name them, hits in their time. Or "It´s a tiny weeny yellow polka.."(a complete nonsens but rather cheerful tune). "Can´t by me love".....or the poetic Hey Jude; many songs have become widely spread ´cause there is something in them that appeals; but then of course we have the "flock mentality" of teenagers (and sorry to say of mankind - different political movements sometimes leading to terrible outcomes). Or the pathetic (in my opinion) obsession with social media.
Meaning what evokes mass-sharing of tunes might be dependent upon the prevailing moods in the population. Of course one could get fed up by music. Or a certain genre. Myself - the swingband we started late sixities evolved into a modern very good big band, but some of us re-started with guys from the original herd so we have played those swingera classics for some 20 years now. Thus having played these arrangements, mostly originals during more than 40 years I sometimes find myself bored. But then we play Opus One, Swanee River (Sy Oliver score), "Stampede" (Henderson score) and the "spirit becomes willing again"! This music sets strings in vibrations, strings that make me feel good. Joy/sentiments is provided. I feel therefore I am. But our band does not get any gigs - we who love this music consitute a dwindling number.
In the somewhat below medium level big band, on the other hand, playing the kind of music I described above, I can gloat playing Nesticos Switch In Time seeing the audience having a ball; having another ball when we play "Lady Madonna" - which turns me on - something is shared, the joy, the sheer beat, speaking to the wild man inside. As does playing Big Dipper...
And I´m almost 76.
So maybe the big bands died because they did not provide what the audiences wanted. The few of us who still fancy a big swinging band, with its rich palette of the reed section, the fat sound of the trombones, the trumpet section swinging as in "Let´s dance" Goodman version will eventually "be no more". To be replaced by electronic mumbo jumbo?
The same fate happening to the "classical" music? The mean age of the classical concert audiences is very high.....
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of factors contributed to the demise of the big bands: bebop, rock and roll, and rising costs among them. But the biggest factor in my opinion was TV. When people started staying home to watch wrestling and Gunsmoke, the end was near.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many people think the consumption of music has diminished: "In the good old days we would go out to dances and clubs there was live music everywhere"

The consumption of music has actually increased. The distribution of music has changed. Music naturally evolves. But the way the masses listen has also evolved.
-From terrestrial radio to non-terrestrial.
-From tangible product to streaming and non tangible digital downloads.

The multi-billion dollar music industry is alive and well.

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loweredsixth
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
In fact nobody likes the sound and the kind of music of a bigband anymore except some very old people with memories and of course musicians, especially high blowers on the trumpet, almost their only spot to glow.


Wow. You do know that the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra plays to huge audiences all around the world, right? There are other big bands that perform to audiences of non-musicians and people under 50 all the time.

Of course, the number of people that like the sound of a big band is a very small percentage worldwide, but your statement is over exaggerated.
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BGinNJ
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's local big bands with pros and amateurs, but I think the age of the national touring big band is over. I knew a sax player in the 80's who toured with the Glenn Miller orchestra, then became a school teacher.

The economics of a big band are just not viable. Maynard's band was the last of a breed, and at the end of his career they were down to 9 pieces, I think.
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

loweredsixth wrote:
[quote="delano"

...
Of course, the number of people that like the sound of a big band is a very small percentage worldwide, but your statement is over exaggerated.


You are right but you have to see that in the context of the title of this thread. Of course there are some people who still like the bigband, but I wanted to make a clear statement and not one with too many
perhaps and the like.
In my previous life I played first and second chair trombone in too many bigbands for over twenty years so I know the stuff. I liked to do it and maybe I still do but I don't think I feel any need to play records of Benny Goodman stuff and the like for myself.
BTW I love the Ellington Band, play that records often and also the genius of Gil Evans but I do not consider them to be typical bigbands.
And I indulge some secret wish to join a Paul Whiteman like band if I can find one.
And to my surprise I really agree with the post of mr. Fudd here above, something new for me.
N.B. For a long time I had the same with the sound of a symphonic orchestra, heard it too much, boring, but it is healing now a little bit, maybe thanks to mr. Richard Wagner.
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area51recording
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
area51recording wrote:
delano wrote:
area51recording wrote:

THIS post illustrates the difference between being a PRO and being a poser that nails double c's and lip trills in your Mom's basement, IMO.....


Blessed are the poor in spirit.


Care to explain what THIS is about? Am I "poor in spirit" because I feel a professional musician has an imperative to give the audience what it wants above my own preferences? If you mean something else, please amplify on your comment. I'd love to know what it might be that you are talking about.....


I'd love to know what it might be that you are talking about.....


I doubt this.
Your statement has no beginning and no end.
First, the one you are referring to is not a pro nor is his attitude (see for that down under second). The first thing a pro must do is fulfilling the thing he is hired for. If that is pleasing an audience, ok. Most pro's I know play a lot in a studio without an audience. They play what is written and often don't know the final result let be that it will please an audience.
Second, the other side of a pro is not a poser, screaming double C's in the basement but on the contrary somebody who did not have the motivation to play everything in front of him for some bucks but chooses to play what he likes and is earning his money in an other way. The main difference being to play for bread or for fun. So the pro and the poser in your statement do not exist and my conclusion is that you have no idea. But because you seem to be quite happy with that I concluded that the poor in spirit are blessed. Still I am not sure you'll love this all.[/quote]

Whatever man.....have a blessed day
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delano
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="area51recording"
Whatever man.....have a blessed day[/quote]


Thanks and I am glad that all your days seem to be blessed.
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gstump wrote:


He does skim over the real reasons the Big Dance Bands lost their popular culture status: The Petrillo strike and the move of the singers from sitting in a chair to up front star status. That along with electric amplification and the die was cast.

I played with Buddy Rich in the 70s. Buddy would not play for dancers and had no vocalist (except him Bein' Green). I made around $180 a week playing split lead under Lin Biviono. Big Band Jazz was more like poetry in the pop ratings of the fine arts.

It is much easier for the masses to appreciate a great song with actual words than a great Sal Nestico arrangement.

Leave Stan alone!!


One difference between “popular” and “art” often is money.

The total operating expenses of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra for the fiscal year 2016/17 was $70,763,000.

Their revenue from ticket sales was $22,165,000.

Butts in the seats would not have covered 1/3 of the expenses.


Taylor Swift’s 2018 opening tour date at University of Phoenix Stadium set new venue records in both gross and attendance, topping Metallica’s $5.2 million gross earned in August 2017 by almost $2 million. With 59,157 tickets sold, she also broke the attendance record set during One Direction’s Where We Are tour in 2014 by 2,633 seats.

She earned $54,000,000 in the first five concerts on this 25-date tour.

I'm sure that she covered her expenses.


I turned down going out with Woody in 1970 and again in ‘71. I was making a lot more money with a 6-piece rock/pop cover band six nites a week – pretty much packing the dance floor from 9pm until 2am, and sleeping in my own bed every nite.

-Denny
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Satchmo101
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BGinNJ wrote:
There's local big bands with pros and amateurs, but I think the age of the national touring big band is over. I knew a sax player in the 80's who toured with the Glenn Miller orchestra, then became a school teacher.

The economics of a big band are just not viable. Maynard's band was the last of a breed, and at the end of his career they were down to 9 pieces, I think.


I agree - most of the touring "big" bands I've seen doing the rounds in the UK are around 10 piece bands. I had the pleasure of seeing The Big Phat Band in the UK but I think most of these players would have a day job as session musicians? e.g. there main income would be something other than the fantastic BPB
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Lot of answers here but missing one:

Maybe the people were completely fed up with the bigband sound as something ancient and boring, something from their parents lives.
In fact nobody likes the sound and the kind of music of a bigband anymore except some very old people with memories and of course musicians, especially high blowers on the trumpet, almost their only spot to glow.
For the record, I am 70 years old and never understood why people loved or even liked the music of bigbands. For myself I know only two exceptions, Duke Ellington and Gil Evans, they are great. And I like the sound of ancient dance bands like Paul Whiteman, Fletcher Henderson and even Glenn Miller. But that's more for the sound, very nostalgic and not possible anymore.


Posting is like trying to walk through a minefield . . .

In NYC, big bands are still playing. People like them. They don't pay great (they never really did except for the most popular bands), but people do like them.

As always, sweeping generalizations are often times not correct. Your post is a good example.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fell hard for big bands in the 70s in no small part due to Maynard. It took me a while to develop an appreciation of other big bands but I came around. After high school, I mostly played in big bands though I quite some years back.

If I had more time and money I'd see more big bands. As it stands I only see a big band a few times a year. I'm lucky enough to be in southern California and not far from where the Tom Kubis Big Band plays monthly. That band is beyond awesome,...and a hoot! I'm hoping to make my way to seeing Gordon Goodwin's BPB sometime in the future. The two bands share a number of musicians but the book is obviously quite different.
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trane1959
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

come to new york city. They ain't dead.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It probably doesn't help that there are quite a lot of big bands out there that simply don't have the appropriate personnel to pull off the material they're attempting to play, or are playing bad material for bad reasons. Or both.

Popular musical styles generally take off and then taper off as they are perceived as belonging to the previous generation of listeners. Sometimes, if luck will have it, they enjoy something of a resurgence (think 20s+swing reviving itself as dixieland in the 1950s).

I think it's also misleading to think of "big band music" as a style. Sure, the ensemble makeup may be largely unchanged, but compositionally the music being played has evolved every 10-15 years as more stress on space for improvisors has been built into arrangements.

As far as the arc of Miller-era big band music, other considerations are that radio was a much bigger factor in peoples' home lives than it has been in the last 40-50 years. It also predated the LP by a number of years. So those things factor as well.

Finally...I won't fall down the rabbit hole of entertainer versus artist versus pro versus whatever, except to say that there is no shame in performing appropriate music that you like to perform over the whims of the audience. Play good music, and people with good taste will come and listen to you.

Just my $0.02.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
I turned down going out with Woody in 1970 and again in ‘71. I was making a lot more money with a 6-piece rock/pop cover band six nites a week – pretty much packing the dance floor from 9pm until 2am, and sleeping in my own bed every nite.

-Denny

I think that's really the crux of it for me. I'll still do "legit" gigs - church services for Easter and Christmas and that kind of thing, and the occasional sub-in brass quintet thing, but if I want to maximize my earnings for my time, it's all about the top-40 party band.

Back in the early 2000s, between about 2001 and 2005, I was gigging in both a big band and the wedding band. (On top of playing drums in a praise band, being in the National Guard band, being a den leader and soccer coach for my son, etc) I was juggling too much and something had to give, so I started cutting the things that gave me the least amount of payoff for my time, which included the big band, which is a shame because big band is some of my favorite music to play.

I pared everything down to where the only gig I kept was the wedding/party band. We didn't rehearse - we rolled in ready to go - and I made the most money per gig out of everything I did, with the exception of the one-off holiday church gig. It made the most sense economically.
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