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Satchmo101 Regular Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2018 Posts: 22
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:11 am Post subject: Shake like a pro - how? |
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Notice that top trumpet pros such as Wayne Bergeron and Mike Lovatt seem to be able to do delightful shakes which seem to be at least a tone apart. I tend to do them as an exaggerated wide vibrato and hope for the best but the pros seem to be producing quite a different and cool effect. Notice they seem to start them a bit slower and they quicken them up, don;t know if this kind of a set-up or just a style thing. Any tips appreciated _________________ Smith-Watkins Bb (ML) Professional Trumpet
Smith-Watkins Bb Professional Cornet
Conn Vintage One Flugelhorn |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:48 am Post subject: |
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It's all about tongue level. To get great, fluid "shakes" (aka lip trills, or really, tongue trills) the tongue needs to be arched up a bit more than it would be to just sustain the note. And then you move the note by doing with your tongue exactly what you do when whistling a trill. This is easier to demonstrate than to put into words. If you want, contact me through the e-mail button below and we can get together on Skype and I'll show you what I mean in a couple of minutes.
Cheers,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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Sharkbaitboi Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2018 Posts: 104 Location: Antarctica Symphony
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Arban lip trill exercises. The one where its quarter, eighth, sixteenth, sextuplets in all valve and partials |
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Satchmo101 Regular Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2018 Posts: 22
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for this - will get the arban out and think of trill whistling with tongue. Have tried starting them slower and seems to set them off better. _________________ Smith-Watkins Bb (ML) Professional Trumpet
Smith-Watkins Bb Professional Cornet
Conn Vintage One Flugelhorn |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:07 am Post subject: |
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I started off practicing on the partial between Bb and C above the staff - that interval (and related valve combinations) was really easy for me to figure out. The rest pretty much came naturally after that. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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B. Scriver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2002 Posts: 1204 Location: Toronto, Canada
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starkadder Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 May 2008 Posts: 542
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Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Another example of how to shake like a pro:
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 390 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:34 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | It's all about tongue level. |
Or, about no tongue change at all.
If the player has some cushion between the teeth and the mpc, strong shakes coming from the hand can be very wide and spectacularly wild -- nothing like a lip (tongue) trill.
-Denny |
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joey Regular Member
Joined: 22 Sep 2003 Posts: 59 Location: Bloomington IN
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:18 am Post subject: |
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In June I sat down and talked with Daniel Gerona about this.
You can check it out here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qGxbLGHUB0&t=2s
Like a lot of trumpet techniques, it's about building the coordination, then learning to apply it.
I hope this helps,
Joey _________________ Joey Tartell
Indiana University |
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Mike Sailors Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:21 am Post subject: |
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The OP wants to know about a shake, not a lip trill. Both have their place, but they're different.
I learned by first doing them with a bucket mute in. It's a lot easier and you can learn the feel. Shakes are all feel in my opinion.
Hear it, then do it. _________________ www.mikesailors.com |
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Yamahaguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Turkle wrote: | I started off practicing on the partial between Bb and C above the staff - that interval (and related valve combinations) was really easy for me to figure out. The rest pretty much came naturally after that. | +1 |
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Turkle Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:18 am Post subject: |
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One more tip - when I first started trying to do shakes, I was pressing the mouthpiece into my chops. That was cutting off the air and thus the sound. It will not shock you that this was a bad strategy.
A friend saw me trying to do it and pointed out that instead of pushing the horn onto my chops I should instead pull the horn away from the chops and increase the airflow a bit. All of a sudden it was super easy to shake at the end of the note.
So if, like me, you were pressing the horn on your chops, try pulling it away a bit and put a little more air through it and see if that helps.
Like any other technique on the horn, you just have to mess around with it for a while until you get the sound you are looking for! _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:54 am Post subject: |
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The first time I produced a lip trill was entirely by accident. I was doing The Wizard of Oz with a children's group but they had cobbled in "No Bad News" from The Wiz. The piece ended with a rip up to C and I was using a plunger. All of a sudden with no intention on my part, the note started trilling. Freaked me out. Thought it was a fluke but sure enough, most every time I executed the lick the C would trill. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Denny Schreffler wrote: | John Mohan wrote: | It's all about tongue level. |
Or, about no tongue change at all.
If the player has some cushion between the teeth and the mpc, strong shakes coming from the hand can be very wide and spectacularly wild -- nothing like a lip (tongue) trill.
-Denny |
Yes, very true. When I first read the OP's question, though he did use the word "shake", based on how he went on to describe it, I thought he was referring to trills done up high in the register which to me at least, rely mainly on the tongue or lip trill. But if he is talking about performing these in the middle to beginning of the upper register (around middle C up to around G at the top of the staff), then yes, it's a shake he's after. Or as Wayne points out on his video, a combination of lip (tongue) trill and shake which sounds even wilder. |
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Speed Veteran Member
Joined: 13 May 2015 Posts: 295 Location: Mississippi
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Let's see if we can get on the same page about the terminology.
The first time I ever noticed the effect was listening to what Lew Soloff played toward the end of Blood, Sweat & Tears' "Spinning Wheel." I think it's fair to classify that as a trademark lick.
Is that a "shake" or is that a "lip trill."
Are the effects different, or are a "shake" and a "lip trill" two different techniques that generate the same effect?
If not, an example of each would be helpful.
Take care,
Marc Speed |
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Denny Schreffler Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Posts: 390 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | Denny Schreffler wrote: | John Mohan wrote: | It's all about tongue level. |
Or, about no tongue change at all.
If the player has some cushion between the teeth and the mpc, strong shakes coming from the hand can be very wide and spectacularly wild -- nothing like a lip (tongue) trill.
-Denny |
Yes, very true. When I first read the OP's question, though he did use the word "shake", based on how he went on to describe it, I thought he was referring to trills done up high in the register which to me at least, rely mainly on the tongue or lip trill. But if he is talking about performing these in the middle to beginning of the upper register (around middle C up to around G at the top of the staff), then yes, it's a shake he's after. Or as Wayne points out on his video, a combination of lip (tongue) trill and shake which sounds even wilder. |
Well, the OP wrote -- shakes which seem to be at least a tone apart.
Wayne is great.
Joey Tartell is great.
Yes, sometimes "SHAKE" or the shake symbol can be interpreted by employing a lip trill or trill+hand, but there also is a style that employs a very wide, sometimes violent, shake that is essentially all hand.
Charlie Porter does a good of touching the surface of the obvious difference between the two approaches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mFZ5uaJQ3Y
There is a similar confusion among some in the tpt community between "growl" and "flutter tongue."
There is also some validity in taking the term at its face value but, of course, applying it contextually.
I played a one-nighter in Kentucky with Sammy Kaye in 1973 -- yes, I stood up with the rest of the band and sang, Hey, Daddy! -- it was a blast. He brought his regular rhythm section, his lead alto, and his lead trumpet -- nice guy and flawless player. The rest of the band -- including 2nd and 3rd tpt -- were regional players.
The first time that we encountered a "turn" written above a note, the new guys all played a turn but the lead alto and lead trumpet played an exaggerated scoop with a hard cut-off. He looked over and gave us a smile at the first opportunity and the rest of the band scooped for the rest of the nite.
There also might have been "Nanny" (Goat) shakes on that gig -- not sure, but I have encountered that marking in other urtext parts in later historically informed performances.
-Denny |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8911 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Speed wrote: | Let's see if we can get on the same page about the terminology.
The first time I ever noticed the effect was listening to what Lew Soloff played toward the end of Blood, Sweat & Tears' "Spinning Wheel." I think it's fair to classify that as a trademark lick.
Is that a "shake" or is that a "lip trill."
Are the effects different, or are a "shake" and a "lip trill" two different techniques that generate the same effect?
If not, an example of each would be helpful.
Take care,
Marc Speed |
Lip trills usually have a more smooth fluid transition between notes. They can be slow or fast and can be narrow or wide intervals. It's primarily achieved with the tongue and lip.
Shakes are usually very abrupt transitions between notes. They are usually fast and to adjacent harmonics. There's usually significant hand motion involved. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:48 am Post subject: |
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Shake like a pro? Stop drinking for a couple of days... _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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