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rcaruso0911
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Joined: 18 Aug 2014
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Location: Haverhill Mass.
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 Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:56 am Post subject: Retrofit b flat Bach Stradivarius to play in the key of G |
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Hello
I play mostly b flat instruments but have recently started to play in a drum and bugle corp. they still use instruments in the key of g. Does anyone know who could retrofit my trumpet so that when I play with the corp, I can change the slides to move from b flat to G and then of course, back to b flat?
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veery715
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Nope, not doable on a practical level.
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veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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tommy t.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| veery715 wrote: | | Nope, not doable on a practical level. |
No kidding!
Basically you'd need a second bell (to keep the partials in tune), all valve slides (to establish the proper 1/2 step ratios), a new lead pipe and tuning slide to be consistent with the long horn need for that big of a step down. I suspect that you might even want two mouthpieces to get a good intonation in both keys.
For best results, you might as well add a new valve block in order to change the overall bore to optimize for each key.
Tommy T.
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pinstriper
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Just hold the 3rd valve down. Presto ! you have a 2-valve G bugle. That's how we prepared for the switch from valve-rotor horns to 2-valves before the horns arrived.
If the chart has any G#'s or low C#-Eb, just don't play those notes.
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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Hello RC, I'm familiar with G bugles (marched from '72-'80) and could build you tuning slide extensions for your Bb if you wish. G bugles typically have larger bells and bores so starting out with a larger bore Bb would be preferred, but we could make it work with a ML bore. PM or email me and I'll be happy to take a look at what you have to work with.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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C.E.Divine
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:14 am Post subject: |
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I know you are probably trying to spend as little money possible, and although slide extensions can be made as James said (and don't get me wrong, I'm sure his would play as well as they possibly could), the chassis to begin with isn't the most appropriate thing. For a few bucks more than having custom slides made, you can pick up used kanstul powerbore bugles, which would be the proper bore, slides and larger bell to begin with. Here are some I found on a quick google search.
http://www.vigilantescorps.org/vpaaequipmentforsale.aspx
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Corey Divine
Bach LR19043B B-flat
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Crazy Finn
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| C.E.Divine wrote: | | I know you are probably trying to spend as little money possible, and although slide extensions can be made as James said (and don't get me wrong, I'm sure his would play as well as they possibly could), the chassis to begin with isn't the most appropriate thing. For a few bucks more than having custom slides made, you can pick up used kanstul powerbore bugles, which would be the proper bore, slides and larger bell to begin with. |
Heck, it would probably be cheaper.
G Bugles aren't exactly in high demand. Finding one at a decent price in good shape should be doable.
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veery715
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| Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| James Becker wrote: | | Hello RC, I'm familiar with G bugles (marched from '72-'80) and could build you tuning slide extensions for your Bb if you wish. G bugles typically have larger bells and bores so starting out with a larger bore Bb would be preferred, but we could make it work with a ML bore. PM or email me and I'll be happy to take a look at what you have to work with. |
I can tell you pale at nothing! I see a doubled back 3rd slide as part of this, no?
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veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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Irving
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| Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Vacchiano used to recommend a G attachment for practicing in the lower register. It consisted of 2 Bach 3rd valve slides put together, and placed between the lower leg of the tuning slide and the trumpet. |
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Didymus
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Joined: 19 Dec 2017
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:12 pm Post subject: G to F |
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| James Becker wrote: | | Hello RC, I'm familiar with G bugles (marched from '72-'80) and could build you tuning slide extensions for your Bb if you wish. G bugles typically have larger bells and bores so starting out with a larger bore Bb would be preferred, but we could make it work with a ML bore. PM or email me and I'll be happy to take a look at what you have to work with. |
Hello Mr. Becker,
I know I am piggybacking this query instead of starting a separate thread, but I hope you see this. Have you ever done a conversion of a 3-valve G soprano bugle into an instrument intended as a substitute for a trumpet in low G/F? If so, did any of those conversions involve just fashioning a new set of slides to tune to low F without changing or adjusting the bell or leadpipe? I ask because a few years ago I read somewhere about how some players were buying G soprano bugles and sending them to technicians such as yourself for such conversions, as a lower cost substitute to buying a brand new instrument from a high end manufacturer. Since one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, I wanted to verify if this was possible and worth the time. Thanks. |
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Didymus
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:13 pm Post subject: Wow. Curious? |
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| Irving wrote: | | Vacchiano used to recommend a G attachment for practicing in the lower register. It consisted of 2 Bach 3rd valve slides put together, and placed between the lower leg of the tuning slide and the trumpet. |
Do you have a picture of a trumpet with a G attachment? I'm curious to see how it works. |
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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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Location: Littleton, MA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: G to F |
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| Didymus wrote: |
Hello Mr. Becker,
I know I am piggybacking this query instead of starting a separate thread, but I hope you see this. Have you ever done a conversion of a 3-valve G soprano bugle into an instrument intended as a substitute for a trumpet in low G/F? If so, did any of those conversions involve just fashioning a new set of slides to tune to low F without changing or adjusting the bell or leadpipe? I ask because a few years ago I read somewhere about how some players were buying G soprano bugles and sending them to technicians such as yourself for such conversions, as a lower cost substitute to buying a brand new instrument from a high end manufacturer. Since one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, I wanted to verify if this was possible and worth the time. Thanks. |
To my knowledge Bach not longer offers a low F trumpet in their catalog, but I do remember some specifics. The bore was XL .468" and the bell proportionally large.
So to answer your question about converting a G bugle to F, it's entirely possible. The only remaining bugle maker in the US is Kanstul, they make two models 100 and 102, both are XL .470" bore. The 100 has a traditional D&B corps funnel like bell flare profile while the 102 has a more trumpet like bell flare profile, so I would recommend the 102.
In your search for used 3 piston soprano G bugles you may also find Dynasty sopranos. The USA Dynasty sopranos (made by Allied) were also available in two bell shapes, an XL trumpet shape and a traditional funnel similar to an Olds, built with XL .468" or ML .460" bores. The later imports made by Werl from Brazil have an even wider bell and .460 bore". Due to their age you may encounter "red rot" in the leadpipe tubes, so don't be surprised if a new pipe is on order.
Ideally you could request that Kanstul build you a 102 standing in F. Honestly these are not all that expensive and you wouldn't be buying something that has seen hard use on a football field.
I hope this is helpful.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Didymus
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Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Posts: 306
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: G to F |
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| James Becker wrote: | | Didymus wrote: |
Hello Mr. Becker,
I know I am piggybacking this query instead of starting a separate thread, but I hope you see this. Have you ever done a conversion of a 3-valve G soprano bugle into an instrument intended as a substitute for a trumpet in low G/F? If so, did any of those conversions involve just fashioning a new set of slides to tune to low F without changing or adjusting the bell or leadpipe? I ask because a few years ago I read somewhere about how some players were buying G soprano bugles and sending them to technicians such as yourself for such conversions, as a lower cost substitute to buying a brand new instrument from a high end manufacturer. Since one should not believe everything one reads on the Internet, I wanted to verify if this was possible and worth the time. Thanks. |
To my knowledge Bach not longer offers a low F trumpet in their catalog, but I do remember some specifics. The bore was XL .468" and the bell proportionally large.
So to answer your question about converting a G bugle to F, it's entirely possible. The only remaining bugle maker in the US is Kanstul, they make two models 100 and 102, both are XL .470" bore. The 100 has a traditional D&B corps funnel like bell flare profile while the 102 has a more trumpet like bell flare profile, so I would recommend the 102.
In your search for used 3 piston soprano G bugles you may also find Dynasty sopranos. The USA Dynasty sopranos (made by Allied) were also available in two bell shapes, an XL trumpet shape and a traditional funnel similar to an Olds, built with XL .468" or ML .460" bores. The later imports made by Werl from Brazil have an even wider bell and .460 bore". Due to their age you may encounter "red rot" in the leadpipe tubes, so don't be surprised if a new pipe is on order.
Ideally you could request that Kanstul build you a 102 standing in F. Honestly these are not all that expensive and you wouldn't be buying something that has seen hard use on a football field.
I hope this is helpful. |
Yes, it was a helpful answer!
Thank you for taking the time to explain it, much appreciated! |
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James Becker
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW the Bach Stradivarius model designation is 187 F if you're searching,
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Didymus
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Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:30 pm Post subject: Actually..... |
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| James Becker wrote: | | FWIW the Bach Stradivarius model designation is 187 F if you're searching, |
Actually, I wasn't looking for an instrument like the VB 187F. As far as I know, it's a contra-alto trumpet but not one of those longer instruments that still play in the same range as the smaller Bb instruments. It also uses a different larger mouthpiece than the standard trumpet, correct? As such, and according to my understanding, it's not really a modern version of the 19th century orchestral trumpet in low F. It's a different instrument for a different use- or that was how the difference was explained to me in the past. I apologize in advance for not being clearer about what I would want to do with the converted soprano bugle. I was under the strong impression that d&bc soprano bugles (in G) made by manufacturers like Dynasty and Kanstul play in the same range as Bb trumpets, have roughly the same bore size as large bore Bb trumpets, and use the same mouthpiece as Bb trumpets. |
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