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MrOlds
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Joined: 25 Apr 2003
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Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scribd has the Goldman edition in PDF.
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old French Model wrote:
Its very difficult for English speakers to learn to correctly pronounce the French pronoun tu. And it is not at all like a “tee” or a “too” sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFRfo2eiCK8

In order to pronounce the French tu correctly the lips must move slightly forward into a bit of a pucker as they close very slightly. There is also a feeling of openness in the nasal area, the sinus and a bit of resonance there as well.


Actually it is not really difficult for us English speakers to pronounce the French "tu", assuming one knows the actual sound desired. The problem comes up because English speakers read "tu" in the Arban book without the opportunity to hear the sound of "tu". The English word "mew" (as in the sound a cat makes) is one of the (admittedly rare) English words that uses the vowel sound of the French syllable "tu" (without the t articulation at the beginning of the sound).

As for the relationship between the French "tu" and the "tee" (as in the word "tea") sound, you are right, one must purse their lips out a bit to make the final part of the "tu" sound (but not the beginning of the "tu" sound which starts off with a very brief "tee" sound). But in terms of what the tongue is doing, the tongue moves into the same position for both "tu" and "tee". The only difference between "tu" and "tee" involved the repositioning of the lips as the "tu" sound is pronounced.

I have a request for you: Please say the "tu" sound out loud and pay attention to where the tip of your tongue is while articulating the sound. I am going to guess that the tip of your tongue starts and remains behind your bottom front teeth through the whole pronunciation of the sound. Am I correct?

I think your idea for a dedicated forum is great!

Best wishes,

John Mohan

P.S. A picture of my wife and I from around 2002 at a place in your beautiful city I think you'll find very familiar:



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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOlds wrote:
Scribd has the Goldman edition in PDF.


Thanks for the info!
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Old French Model
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Joined: 21 Sep 2018
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Location: Paris, France

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I know that place very well. My home is only a few minutes walk away.
I hope you enjoyed your visit.

I didn’t mean to single out English speakers. The French u as in tu, lu, nu, apercu is a challenge for all non native speakers of French. I know plenty of people who speak French very well, but have real trouble with pronunciation of this vowel. I tried to think of an English sound that could duplicate the French u, and like you, I thought of hew, Lou, mew etc. But this does not get it right. But this is a forum about Trumpets and not French grammar or pronunciation….

Quote:
I have a request for you: Please say the "tu" sound out loud and pay attention to where the tip of your tongue is while articulating the sound. I am going to guess that the tip of your tongue starts and remains behind your bottom front teeth through the whole pronunciation of the sound. Am I correct?


Yes, I noticed this as well. You cannot pronounce it correctly if the tongue is raised or anywhere except resting flat with the tip positioned behind the lower teeth.

I also notice that my lips move forward and close when I say a French tu. And that leads me to a question: did Claude Gordon favor the Maggio pucker or unfurled lip position or was he completely neutral on how the lips should be? What I have read of his works seem to say he had little focus on the lips except that they are there just to vibrate. Is this right?
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old French Model wrote:
Yes, I know that place very well. My home is only a few minutes walk away.
I hope you enjoyed your visit.

I didn’t mean to single out English speakers. The French u as in tu, lu, nu, apercu is a challenge for all non native speakers of French. I know plenty of people who speak French very well, but have real trouble with pronunciation of this vowel. I tried to think of an English sound that could duplicate the French u, and like you, I thought of hew, Lou, mew etc. But this does not get it right. But this is a forum about Trumpets and not French grammar or pronunciation….

Quote:
I have a request for you: Please say the "tu" sound out loud and pay attention to where the tip of your tongue is while articulating the sound. I am going to guess that the tip of your tongue starts and remains behind your bottom front teeth through the whole pronunciation of the sound. Am I correct?


Yes, I noticed this as well. You cannot pronounce it correctly if the tongue is raised or anywhere except resting flat with the tip positioned behind the lower teeth.

I also notice that my lips move forward and close when I say a French tu. And that leads me to a question: did Claude Gordon favor the Maggio pucker or unfurled lip position or was he completely neutral on how the lips should be? What I have read of his works seem to say he had little focus on the lips except that they are there just to vibrate. Is this right?


Your answer regarding the fact that you keep the tongue tip down behind the bottom teeth when pronouncing the "tu" sound confirms for me that Claude Gordon was right when he claimed that J.B. Arban was describing what Claude called "K-Tongue Modified" (KTM) tonguing - tonguing the way his teacher Herbert L. Clarke tongued and described in his book Characteristic Studies for the Cornet. Some people call this Dorsal Tonguing as it is the "dorsal" part of the tongue (the top middle portion behind the tip) that articulates the note while the tip stays down in the area behind the bottom front teeth. Others call this "Anchor Tonguing" believing mistakenly that the tongue tip should be "anchored" behind the bottom teeth. Claude didn't think this was a good term and I agree - the tongue tip should never be "anchored" or held rigidly but rather should be allowed to move freely in the area behind the bottom front teeth. At times it will rise up to the tops of those bottom teeth and at other times it can be lower. It should always be relaxed and allowed to move as it needs to in this area.

Unfortunately, Claude's excellent description of this, the proper way to tongue has been lost to the ages as far as the new Arban book is concerned - his footnote that appears as footnote #15 on page 8 of the 1982 edition of the Arban book is gone. Like his other comments, the KTM tonguing explanation and references to other books where it is described, has been removed from the book.

As far as embouchure, Claude was more of a Maggio pucker style advocate but he was not dogmatic about it. The main thing he stressed was that using smiling or stretching of the lip to reach higher notes is wrong.

Personally, I think Maggio's embouchure description and Lynn Nicholson's "unfurling" description are examples of different words being used to describe the same thing (I don't think Maggio really advocated an extreme pucker, and when I play in the upper register I do feel that I am doing with my lips what Lynn Nicholson describes as "unfurling" to at least some extent). I think James Morrison provides an excellent explanation regarding embouchure and air at the spot I've cued up on this video:

https://youtu.be/ujrTDbnvDpU?t=123
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Old French Model
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Joined: 21 Sep 2018
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Location: Paris, France

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your answer regarding the fact that you keep the tongue tip down behind the bottom teeth when pronouncing the "tu" sound confirms for me that Claude Gordon was right when he claimed that J.B. Arban was describing what Claude called "K-Tongue Modified" (KTM) tonguing - tonguing the way his teacher Herbert L. Clarke tongued and described in his book Characteristic Studies for the Cornet.


I was reading Merri Franquin yesterday. He taught a "tan tan" sound for tonguing. This sound in French is rendered well in English via the word "TONK." If you pronounce the "TON" and leave off the "K", and pretend you have a bad cold when you say it, you will have the sound Franquin professes. And this sound is very much KTM tonguing, even more so than tu.
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