| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
JetJaguar
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1518
Location: Vancouver, BC
|
 Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:00 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
That make sense. I was wondering if it wasn't some kind of saddle shape. I can't really tell whats going on those MRI videos. Like is that here sinuses or her eyes?
_________________
1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
area51recording
Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 480
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We are sooo there  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jetjaguar wrote: | | That make sense. I was wondering if it wasn't some kind of saddle shape. I can't really tell whats going on those MRI videos. Like is that here sinuses or her eyes? |
https://i.postimg.cc/kG9MFds6/Anterior-View-Sarah-Willis.jpg
You'll definitely want to click on the image to open it up full-size in a separate window. Sorry about the 1st grader penmanship - I just learned that it is nearly impossible (at least for me) to write using the pencil thing in Microsoft Paint!
In this section of one of the videos (it's already queued up to the right spot), the scientist points out the anatomical features to Sarah as she watches the video (probably a lot more helpful than my Kindergarten writing above):
https://youtu.be/ctyzYXd6HNw?t=602
Cheers,
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jason Rogers
Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2021
Posts: 101
Location: Salisbury, MD
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:55 am Post subject: Tongue Arch |
|
|
Simply put:
If you are an expert at whistling---you are an expert at tongue arch---the concept works the same when trumpet playing---
_________________
Martin Committee 1954
Benge
Bach Stradivarius
Schilke
Getzen |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3257
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
If you are an expert at whistling---you are an expert at tongue arch---the concept works the same when trumpet playing |
Not exactly. Many can arch the tongue and whistle. That does not make them skilled at producing trumpet tone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steve0930
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 191
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hello Fellow Trumpet Players, as a Historian (not Physics) I enjoyed reading this resurrected thread,
Re the big debate
John Mohan wrote
| Quote: | | a certain amount of air pressure must be reached to click the note to the next level and then that pressure can be relaxed. A simple example is a light switch - one can move that switch a few millimeters before anything happens, and then suddenly a point is reached where the light clicks on. |
I'm assuming the crux of the matter is that Kalijah would substitute the words "air pressure" with "firmness or tension" if I have understood it right?
Kalijah wrote
| Quote: | | The aperture also really does not change in size that much from low to high. The "firmness" or "tension" however, varies DRASTICALY. And it is the aperture muscles that control this. |
_________________________________________________________
And moving on:
John Mohan wrote
| Quote: | | Practicing the correct material correctly is what is absolutely necessary in my opinion |
Anyone ready to expand on this comment?
I am working with Flexus Flexibility studies (page 29) when you play for example c and b flat above the staff alternating with lower notes at bottom of staff. Any other tips on correct material correctly?
Cheers and Best Wishes Steve in Helsinki
PS Finland's Independence Day Today so all the flags are proudly flying.
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| steve0930 wrote: | | ... Re the big debate ... |
---------------------
Yes there is debate, but it seems to be mostly a 'chicken & egg' situation.
The 'tension & firmness' and the 'necessary air pressure' are intertwined - too much/little of EITHER will not work, they have to be coordinated.
The player needs to develop the necessary feeling (sensations) of BOTH embouchure control, and air pressure/flow.
Tension & firmness will establish the air pressure needed to produce air flow and sound.
Maintainined air pressure & flow will establish the needed tension & firmness.
edit: I call this duality my "unified theory of pitch control"
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3257
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Tension & firmness will establish the air pressure needed to produce air flow and sound. |
Not true. Air pressure is established by the lung air pressure and the exhalation effort.
| Quote: | | Maintained air pressure & flow will establish the needed tension & firmness. |
Not true. The "tension and firmness" controls the pitch. The air pressure and flow can vary significantly with dynamic changes on a constant pitch. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
acritzer
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Nov 2009
Posts: 827
Location: Cincinnati, OH
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | Tension & firmness will establish the air pressure needed to produce air flow and sound. |
Not true. Air pressure is established by the lung air pressure and the exhalation effort.
| Quote: | | Maintained air pressure & flow will establish the needed tension & firmness. |
Not true. The "tension and firmness" controls the pitch. The air pressure and flow can vary significantly with dynamic changes on a constant pitch. |
In this instance I really think you're misunderstanding Jay's post. Of course, it's possible that I'm misunderstanding him, but I think if you replace "establish" with "dictate" it's more in line with what he's trying to get across.
Maybe? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| acritzer wrote: |
In this instance I really think you're misunderstanding Jay's post. Of course, it's possible that I'm misunderstanding him, but I think if you replace "establish" with "dictate" it's more in line with what he's trying to get across.
Maybe? |
--------------------------
yes - 'dictate' is a better word to describe what I meant. I'm having difficulty finding the best wording - perhaps 'regulate' ? - anyone have a better suggestion!
Using the 'right words' can be very important to avoid misunderstanding, and this situation is a good example.
The 'lip tension / firmness / resistance' needs to be coordinated with the 'air pressure / flow'.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steve0930
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 191
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hello all
I m a big fan of Mr Harrelson (he is so ernest and wants to help)so if you need some free face time from the horn this video was good on aperture control. I m not sure all his physics are right..eg what he says on air speed and pressure ..but he gives very practical examples of the embouchure lip tension that Kalijah references. (He also demos the whisper c above staff at end) Link at the bottom.
By the way for those of you who have not yet worked it out you will be hard pressed to find a better expert to explain the physics of the Trumpet than the aforementioned Kalija.
https://youtu.be/Z7jRoU7G2aM
Cheers and stay safe.. Steve in Helsinki
PS one of my boys just back from Univ so tonight we went to buy the Christmas tree. My instinct said it was good to involve Santeri and sure enough just before we placed said tree in the car he proceeded to cut off half an inch from base.. something I have never thought to do..
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kalijah
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 3257
Location: Alabama
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Harrelson touts what he calls the "aperture controlled embouchure" which encourages to literally limit the lateral (side to side) lip vibration to control pitch. That is a recipe for weak high tones, which he demonstrates.
My approach is quite different than Harrelson.
Players with solid high tones use rim to rim vibration and simply add "stiffness" in the smallest amounts to control pitch. Lyn Nicholson is also a proponent of rim-to-rim vibration. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steve0930
Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2018
Posts: 191
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Gosh that was quick thanks Darryl,
| Quote: | | simply add "stiffness" in the smallest amounts to control pitch |
sits well with my mind set / current approach so relief to read that.
Jason H does talk about shortening the lip length in this video and I wasn't quite sure how that is achieved - turn's out I don't have to worry..
cheers Steve
PS At school I manged to get a "B" (Yes!) in O level (aged 16) physics but that was only by avoiding questions with numbers in them.
_________________
My Number 1 supporter
http://langdons.com/images/langdon-image.jpg |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hnewbold
New Member
Joined: 31 Dec 2021
Posts: 1
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2021 4:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Interesting 
_________________
Harris Newbold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
motohead400
New Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2023
Posts: 3
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 4:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I know I'm resurrecting this thread from the dead but I'll have to say that I agree with kalijah and his logic on the tongue arch. I've spent much time experimenting with it and it does absolutely nothing for me. I have a feeling this is something that equates to weight lifters having strained expressions on their face. It's like saying, well, every professional weight lifter has an obvious strained expression on their face when lifting weights, so that is part of what it takes to lift heavy weights. That's obviously not the case but they pretty much always go hand in hand and it's just a byproduct of straining. I think that for many trumpet players moving the tongue up is likewise just a byproduct of what happens when they firm up their embouchure (more likely moving the jaw up in conjunction with the tongue). Think about what happens when you double tongue with tu ku tu ku at the top of your mouth, especially on the ku. If the arched position of the tongue really affected the pitch, your pitch would be up and down when double tonguing as the tongue gets closer and further away from the roof of the mouth but that's not at all what happens. I'd say that right there is proof the tongue does nothing to the pitch. I currently play with an incredibly strong lead player (he played with the Glen Miller orchestra many years ago). He agrees that tongue position doesn't help at all. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Richard III
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2007
Posts: 2654
Location: Anacortes, WA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2023 6:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Light is both waves and particles. It depends on what you test for. Same in discussions like this. You can do it both ways or a little of one and a lot of the other. Equipment can aid in this. The more open the equipment, the easier to use the tongue arch. The other issue is that most players are not aware of what they are doing.
So both camps are right. Quite a rare occurrence in disputes.
_________________
Richard
King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3404
Location: Garland, Texas
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| motohead400 wrote: | | I know I'm resurrecting this thread from the dead but I'll have to say that I agree with kalijah and his logic on the tongue arch. I've spent much time experimenting with it and it does absolutely nothing for me. I have a feeling this is something that equates to weight lifters having strained expressions on their face. It's like saying, well, every professional weight lifter has an obvious strained expression on their face when lifting weights, so that is part of what it takes to lift heavy weights. That's obviously not the case but they pretty much always go hand in hand and it's just a byproduct of straining. I think that for many trumpet players moving the tongue up is likewise just a byproduct of what happens when they firm up their embouchure (more likely moving the jaw up in conjunction with the tongue). Think about what happens when you double tongue with tu ku tu ku at the top of your mouth, especially on the ku. If the arched position of the tongue really affected the pitch, your pitch would be up and down when double tonguing as the tongue gets closer and further away from the roof of the mouth but that's not at all what happens. I'd say that right there is proof the tongue does nothing to the pitch. I currently play with an incredibly strong lead player (he played with the Glen Miller orchestra many years ago). He agrees that tongue position doesn't help at all. |
Welcome to TH.
Since you are new here, a bit of unsolicited advice.
First, paragraph breaks are your friend. Big blocks of text are harder to read.
Second, expect some blowback when you adopt an all-or-nothing position. In this case, there is a lot about tongue arch (any upward movement of the tongue, including anchor tonguing) which is not fully understood. Plus, some of the best pros in the business advocate some sort of tongue arch. They aren't all clueless. 
Third, you are misinterpreting Kalijah. He does not say that tongue arch doesn't work. Instead, he says that tongue arch does not work in the way that proponents claim.
Jeff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9003
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| trumpetteacher1 wrote: | | First, paragraph breaks are your friend. Big blocks of text are harder to read. |
Thank you.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
motohead400
New Member
Joined: 19 Apr 2023
Posts: 3
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| trumpetteacher1 wrote: |
Welcome to TH.
Since you are new here, a bit of unsolicited advice.
First, paragraph breaks are your friend. Big blocks of text are harder to read.
Second, expect some blowback when you adopt an all-or-nothing position. In this case, there is a lot about tongue arch (any upward movement of the tongue, including anchor tonguing) which is not fully understood. Plus, some of the best pros in the business advocate some sort of tongue arch. They aren't all clueless.
Third, you are misinterpreting Kalijah. He does not say that tongue arch doesn't work. Instead, he says that tongue arch does not work in the way that proponents claim.
Jeff |
You're right about the block text, sorry about that. I almost always separate things out. I blame it on the horrible night of insomnia I had the previous night 
I know there are multiple big name players that are huge advocates for a tongue arch and consider it an absolute necessity. Allen Vizzutti and Jens Lindeman are a few that immediately come to mind. Obviously both some extraordinary players most would consider to be among the best. In fact, the first mention I ever heard of a tongue arch was from a master class Jens Lindeman did I attended back in 1999ish. At that time I had already been studying with Fred Mills for several years (who I never once heard mention tongue arch).
Once again, there is no question about the skills these folks have on trumpet, and obviously they are able to play very well arching their tongue. That doesn't mean arching the tongue is necessary for them to play like they do though. It's just what they've been doing for a long time.
As I mentioned, I think tonguing is the most simple proof showing that arching the tongue doesn't affect the pitch. Especially if you anchor tongue like Vizzutti advocates for. You are literally arching your tongue to tongue with that method. Why doesn't your pitch go up every time you tongue? Because that doesn't affect the pitch like people think it does.
I have no doubt that arching the tongue changes the pitch for some people. I also am confident that the reason is because in doing so they're actually changing their embouchure with the movement (most likely bringing the jaw up). That or just cutting off airflow, likely keeping them from overblowing, which makes it easier to close up your embouchure aperture and thus go higher.
I've seen much mentioned about air speed, and the thumb over the end of the hose analogy. The tongue would make sense for air speed if you positioned your mouthpiece on the gap between your tongue and the roof of your mouth instead of your lips. However, the hole you form with your lips is the thumb on the hose. Along that same logic take a garden hose set to spray in a tight jet. While you're spraying start kinking the hose itself (basically what you are doing with a tongue arch). That doesn't make the water come out as if the nozzle got tighter or really change the pattern of how it comes out at all. All it does is cut off flow. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| motohead400 wrote: | | ... they're actually changing their embouchure with the movement ... |
---------------------
IMO - that's it.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
