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Conventional vs realistic mouthpiece choices re range



 
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:52 pm    Post subject: Conventional vs realistic mouthpiece choices re range Reply with quote

It's a trend I've observed since my early years. The director starts a child (a mere child! less than half the body weight/strength of an adult) on the Bach 7C. The teacher's reasoning? "This is what we've always done and this is the best "beginner mouthiece". Press him for a reason why this is a "good beginner" piece and if he even answers at all it'll be something like,

"Well we've always done it this way". Or "everyone who is any good at all does this".

Neither of which is a real explanation. There's a term for this kind of response. I think it's called something like an "ad hom" defense. Meaning, "more people believe this than otherwise". But again the masses could be wrong. That and the defense does not explain why the 7C is superior.

I think that just by using physics and history we can easily cast some doubt on the subject. Then throw in a healthy dose of logic? And the concept dissolves like a sugar cube in hot coffee.

As mentioned, the beginner is often half or less his adult size and strength. On top of that as a raw recruit he has absolutely zero embouchure technique and little strength. There's 2 strikes on the poor right kid off the bat. Then when we add in the sharp inner rim edge, very deep cup on the piece? It's no wonder that the poor kid learns that trumpet playing is a struggle. More of a chore than a pleasure.

Conversely when we examine the most unusual history of a strong natural player, Doc Severinsen for example, We find that he mastered his equipment most swiftly. That according to his bio he was playing the Carnival Of Venice quite well by only his third week on the trumpet. Unlike most of us, Severinsen's relationship to the horn was not at war with physics. For numerous reasons his mouth, chops, jaw, lips etc did not prevent him from playing well. In fact they automatically complimented the proper playing of the instrument. For a fellow like this?

A 7C was probably a fine choice for him in the beginning. And in fact I think we can safely surmise that most mouthpieces are similarly designed for trumpet players who are naturally well suited to blowing this particular instrument.

There exists a lot of attrition concerning the progression and education of trumpet players. Those who excel early will find the path much easier. They will find more college doors open to them. That and loads of opportunities to perform in public. In turn this will bring them in contact with better connections in the field of musical performance.

In fact out "most honored musical schools" may not exist so much to teach trumpet players who enter their doors but instead merely to collect the cream of the crop of those so naturally blessed. These kids already play great!

In response to this I like to look at the mouthpiece as a great equalizer. Though shallower pieces have been put down by conventional thought this is only due to a system which really isn't interested in teaching a poor kid how to play better. In fact the system isn't really geared to teach things like good embouchure. Instead it only accepts those who've already got it made. Granted these schools will compliment the young gifted player with a curriculum which will accelerate his ability to read music at sight. As well as other ordinary skills. But as for the majority of us? The system seems largely inadequate. We're simply cast off as inadequate regardless of our resolve. I can't begin to tell you how wrong this is.

Yet with a choice of mouthpiece more forgiving to the less physically blessed? It can work wonders. Almost overnight. My thoughts are for those who struggle are,

A. Get a mouthpiece which you can easily blow a solid high C on without jamming. Right from the start.
B. Customize the throat/back-bore for bigness. As most stock shallow pieces run way too tight. The throat size should be a #24 or larger. Like 24, 23, 22, etc. Maynard often went as open as a #15!
C. Try using two pieces but both with the same rims. One kinda shallow and one a little deeper. Use the shallower one for lead or when you tire.

A paradox exists within the world of trumpet mouthpieces. The ones which require the most skilled embouchure are actually the shallowest ones! These closely followed by the veey largest ones. So it is no wonder that teachers try to select for their students something in the supposed "middle". However it is my experience which has long told me that the "middle" needs to be defined as something shallow/smaller. Perhaps more around the size of the 10 & 1/2C. Granted I don't like pieces by Vincent Bach at all. Okay so maybe the "middle" should be around the Shilke 10B.

Then there's also trouble as I see it with rim contour design. Too flat! That and too sharp! What interests me about Herb Alpert's recovery from chop problems long ago was his switch to Marcinkiewicz. While I do know of even better rim designs for people with embouchure pain? Certainly Marcinkiewicz was a damned good choice for Herb.

In short? Look at it this way. The most gifted trumpet players usually find themselves blowing really good high notes right from the beginning. If this is so? Perhaps those of us who've struggled ought to search for a mouthpiece which provides us a similar advantage.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Lionel,

Your reasoning is interesting, however I think I would suggest that the priorities for a beginner are not range and stamina, but more the ability to consistently produce an acceptable tone in the middle and low registers.

You also make the assumption that all trumpet students are starting out with the aspiration to play lead trumpet, but for most this is not the case; again, the goal is simply to be able to start producing music at a level which permits one to play with others.

Whilst I am not a massive fan of the 7C, I think the logic is reasonable as it is a middle-of-the-road compromise; neither large nor small, not too shallow nor deep and with a rim that is also relatively central in the spectrum. This is, logically, a good starter to allow a player to get up to speed playing tunes and being able to consistently produce a solid tone over an octave and a half or two octaves.

In my mind, lead trumpet playing requires a vast number of skills, which must be honed over a long period of time. There are already far too many wannabe 'lead' trumpet players who can vaguely produce the range but do not possess a desirable tone, articulation, dynamic range (soft as well), phrasing, finger dexterity or flexibility. Indeed, a great many of those players would probably benefit from spending a bit longer on the more conventional equipment before moving to their 14A4a or Shew lead.

Hope that is a balanced response that encourages more discussion.

All the best
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An interesting read, but I think that many of your "assumptions" are fraut with faulty reasoning.

The big one is that the mouthpiece makes the notes, particularly in your writing, the higher notes.
If this is the case, how is it that French Horns can play high notes? Why don't good Horn players switch to very shallow mouthpieces to help them play those crazy movie score rips? Because - tone!

"The most gifted trumpet players usually find themselves blowing really good high notes right from the beginning".. really? It's a lovely sentiment but I coubt this will hold much water.. I'd also bet that most gifted trumpet players learned scales quickly, tunes quickly, grew up in homes that were very musical in one way or another, loved performing-dong everyting they could to put themselves in playing situations (streets, bars, bands, schools, etc) and could produce a solid tone from the start.
Then you're talking about the gifted ones-if you don't have those gifts, then you have to struggle and work your butt off. Then again, so do the gifted ones - probably why we never catch them.

I'm sure the first time Wynton touched a trumpet, he sounded much like everyone else. But grew up in an extremely musical home, with a masterful parent, with drive to improve rapidly and to keep learning, opportunity to practice and perform a ton. Environment, availabilty, drive, and certain unlearnable traits.. way more impactful than the mouthpiece.

I'd be more apt to say that if you can't produce a good sound with a reasonably useful range on a mid-sized mouthpiec, than you're doing something else that is inhibiting that output. Playing on a mouthpiece that a top gifted player used will NOT solve nor help that.
Yesterday, I probably played Flugelhorn for about 3 hours throughout the day, at the end of my last 45 minute session I was playing some of the lyrical melodies out of Arban's and played one up an octave-ranging up to an E.. no differnt in play or effort than if I was using my "lead" trumpet setup. Why don't I play lead on my flugelhorn - because "tone" Same notes, different sound.

Doc was a prodigee (father was also a musician)... I'm possitively sure the mouthpiece choice had little if anything to do with his success. I believe he also has one of the largest collections of mouthpieces that he used to play and, from my experience of chatting with him, he's still looking.

One other point that I'll challenge is that boy size or lip thickness/thinness has anything to do with mouthpiece choice - how would you explain, say a Cat Anderson and his moutpiece choice? - a big man, with thick lips and a small, extremely shallow mouthpiece. IMO a crazy great player but had no low end tone - wouldn't work for anything what he's known for.

A 7C is popular because of it's good attributes = medium in size, depth, rim shape, throat and flair, promoting good things in all aspects of playing (tone, articulation, range, air flow, etc) allowing the player to develop the embouchure and musical skills.
3 elements of the trumpeter = the instrument, the mouthpiece and the player. How else would you logically proceed? a moderate instrument, a mid-ground mouthpeice and teach the student. Start in the middle and move as needed, most players don't develope far enough to know what to change for years (if at all). The gifted ones, well... we'll never catch them.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Sharkbaitboi
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I start them on a Bach 1C 24/24. Go big or go home
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jadickson
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason most beginners start on a 7C is because that is the mouthpiece that comes with the beginner trumpet they rent from the music store.

Same thing with the beginner clarinet mouthpiece. And the beginner saxophone mouthpiece. And the beginner trombone mouthpiece....
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Conventional vs realistic mouthpiece choices re range Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
The teacher's reasoning? "This is what we've always done and this is the best "beginner mouthiece".

~shrug~

"A lot of students have had success starting with a 7c" is a valid reason.

They have to start somewhere while they're figuring out which end is up. If you were to claim you can tell exactly what mp would be ideal for any given student I'd heartily tell you you're full of it. If you favor a different mp, if it isn't too radical I'm sure others will work too. It definitely shouldn't get in the way of producing solid lower notes which a 7c shouldn't, while a Jet-Tone would.

I struggled for years and tried mouthpieces that were all over the map. I don't recall what mouthpiece I started on, might have been a 7C. The mouthpiece wasn't the root problem, my physical tools and the mechanics of how I was playing was the problem.

Quote:
Conversely when we examine the most unusual history of a strong natural player, Doc Severinsen for example, We find that he mastered his equipment most swiftly. That according to his bio he was playing the Carnival Of Venice quite well by only his third week on the trumpet. Unlike most of us, Severinsen's relationship to the horn was not at war with physics.

Doc is certainly uniquely gifted but I would take such anecdotes with a grain of salt. Carnival of Venice in three weeks? Hmmm.

As well-suited to the instrument as he was, I've heard him relate during a number of interviews that he had a serious chops crash and burn in his youth, even after he'd started playing professionally. He also ran into a bit of wall with range, which apparently took him a while to find the key to. As is well-known, probably nobody on the planet has gone through more mouthpieces than Doc.

Quote:
A. Get a mouthpiece which you can easily blow a solid high C on without jamming. Right from the start.
B. Customize the throat/back-bore for bigness. As most stock shallow pieces run way too tight. The throat size should be a #24 or larger. Like 24, 23, 22, etc. Maynard often went as open as a #15!
C. Try using two pieces but both with the same rims. One kinda shallow and one a little deeper. Use the shallower one for lead or when you tire.

You started out talking about mouthpieces and beginners, surely you're not recommending A, B, C above for beginners?

Quote:
The most gifted trumpet players usually find themselves blowing really good high notes right from the beginning.

Right from the beginning? Huh...??

I bet if you polled a number of great players, they wouldn't consistently back this up. I bet on their first day playing as kids Doc, Maurice Andre, Wynton etc. sounded pretty rank.

I have some recollection of other kids when I was starting, I don't recall any of them having "great high notes from the beginning". I remember it was a really big deal when the one kid who was basically the best player in our beginner group got to where he could squeeze out a tentative high C.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but there are no "magic" mouthpieces. High range is a product of developing technique consistent with high range. Development is a process. Certain mouthpieces may be more consistent with range development than others, depending on the individual player, but there are no mechanical one-size-fits-all shortcuts.

I do agree that a lot of things in musical education are done "because that's the way it's always been done." Certainly, starting out on a 7C falls into that category. However, some things that have always been done a certain way have worked out pretty well for most students who are serious about developing their skills. With beginners it's best to play the mouthpiece averages until a pattern emerges.

In terms of mouthpiece selection, the beginning player has to start somewhere. A "middle of the road" mouthpiece is a logical place to start plus, if the results indicate some incompatibility between the player and the mouthpiece then the mouthpiece is very easy to change.

I do agree that mouthpiece selection is a "results based" determination. That being said, the beginner has no prior results so a middle of the road mouthpiece is a logical choice.

Your comment that "The most gifted trumpet players usually find themselves blowing really good high notes right from the beginning" is difficult to argue with because of the qualifier "most gifted." How many players do you count as being in that category as defined by an instant ability to play "really good high notes from the beginning"? In my experience it is rare beyond rare for even the most gifted and dedicated student to have anything even resembling high range from the beginning. Plus, it is a fallacy to associate early high range with overall talent, ability, etc. I've know many players who could play high notes in high school but couldn't otherwise blow their nose, let alone the horn. High notes do not automatically indicate a gifted player overall.

As for Doc and "Carnival of Venice," I doubt he's talking about playing all the Herbert L. Clarke variations three weeks in. The basic "Carnival of Venice" is a pretty simple melody. Could a beginning, gifted and dedicated student master that melody enough in three weeks to play it in a recognizable form? I think that may be theoretically possible.

I also agree with previous posters that the beginning student isn't typically focused on becoming a lead player. The beginning student is struggling enough with just the basics of producing tones on the instrument. The best approach to learning to play the trumpet is to build a foundation of correct fundamentals within a range easily attainable by the student and then apply those fundamentals to increase overall skills (including range).
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In most (not all) of the responses I'm seeing so far seem just to be an extension of conventional thinking. In fact among the most reasonable replies was the one making the obvious statement that most trumpet players start on 7C "because it came with the instrument". That is probably the most logical response so far although admittably I only gave most a cursory glance. In large part? The responses seemed predictable to me. In a way? The reaction to my O/P appears to have unintentionally threatened some people.

The trumpet world does not seem prone to exercise a whole lot of self examination. Following conventional patterns appears irresistable. Even when confronted with solid evidence suggesting that far better results could be obtained through the administration of opposing directives? Many trumpet players and teachers will still follow existing routines. I think this is called "cognitive dissonance".

I also tend to consider statements such as "maybe the aspiring trumpet player doesn't want to be a lead player" as tending to be a cop out. Not necessarily so but likely. Granted no one is required to blow lead. And certainly I'd be the last person to insist that a kid "must" learn to blow high notes. However it is also my understanding that each student ought to be taught that there is such a thing as,

"Being able to play the complete range of the instrument".

My experience has also proven that those trumpet players who adopt the attitude of,

"well maybe high notes aren't such a priority"

Tend to come with serious range limitations themselves. Granted most trumpet players (and teachers too!) do have serious range limitations. Yet when considering thoughts such as these I'm reminded of an Aesop tale. The ancient yet oft quoted story featuring an infamous but unsatisfied, and hungry fox. He the one who had unsuccessfully tried to reach a high branch of delicious grapes.

One attraction I've always had with the Stevens-Costello system was that it did turn 180°'s away from conventional thinking. And although the system did have limitations and certainly wasn't applicable (as directed) to all trumpet players? Never the less those who found the system appealing usually developed the complete range of the instrument. My feeling is that rather than dispute or put down important concepts? Instead we should examine how they may be applicable. That and discover what causes the limitations a system like this has. Then seek to correct it.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
In most (not all) of the responses I'm seeing so far seem just to be an extension of conventional thinking. In fact among the most reasonable replies was the one making the obvious statement that most trumpet players start on 7C "because it came with the instrument". That is probably the most logical response so far although admittably I only gave most a cursory glance. In large part? The responses seemed predictable to me. In a way? The reaction to my O/P appears to have unintentionally threatened some people.

Your reaction is that you don't like that others don't agree with you.

You make some statements that as they stand invite incredulity:

The most gifted trumpet players usually find themselves blowing really good high notes right from the beginning.

Really? Can you back this up with evidence?

What *is* your point with this latest wall of text? You don't like the 7C. Okay - you don't suggest alternatives. What do you think the far superior alternative is for a day-one beginner and specifically why?
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some anecdotal experiences from way back:

About 4-5th grade-ish, my trumpet teacher (not school band director) had me on a Rudy Muck "cushion rim" piece, don't remember the size (that was 60 or so years ago, give me a break!). 'Boy, I could belt out honest high C's with that piece, at that young age, no kidding...in the 6th grade. He had me studying the Carnival of Venice, (I still play that piece for my own amusement). This guy ran away from home when he was 14 and joined the circus as a cornet player. He knew his stuff. Toured with circuses for a living for years. He was then about my age now. What a great guy he was and a great player and instrument repairman. Not to mention a talented violinist with our local community Symphony.

Along came 7th grade, and my future high school band director started classes at my school. This was the first time we had ever had formal band classes at that school. He also was a great guy, but when he saw my Rudy Muck piece, he had a hissy fit! I MUST have a Bach 7C!!! So I bought one, or my parents did...still have that piece, a Mt. Vernon. Had it replated a few years ago. My range immediately plummeted, and unfortunately, did not recover a great deal until I entered college. Back then, size seemed to matter among trumpet professors that I studied with...I finally got some range back while playing professionally some, mostly in rock and R&B bands on that old 7C. I played so much on that old Mt. Vernon piece that my lips sorta grew around it...still feels good, although I moved to larger diameter pieces when I was hired to play in an orchestra, mainly for the improved sound spread they gave me.

Although I no longer play 7C's regularly, they are good pieces in my experience and opinion. I used that size a lot playing big band lead, along with Schilke 13a4a's and Purviance 4*-ish pieces. As a school band director, I used 7C's for beginners, although now in retrospect I perhaps would choose 5C's, but that is just me.

FWIW, YMMV, etc..
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boog wrote:
Some anecdotal experiences from way back:

About 4-5th grade-ish, my trumpet teacher (not school band director) had me on a Rudy Muck "cushion rim" piece, don't remember the size (that was 60 or so years ago, give me a break!). 'Boy, I could belt out honest high C's with that piece, at that young age, no kidding...in the 6th grade.

I used to play in a dance band when I was in high school and there was an old guy in the band who had a Rudy Muck cushion rim mp and the shank was bent about 20 degrees or so because he had a severe underbite. I recall he let me try it once, it felt really uncomfortable and wrong to me - but I have somewhat full lips and his lips were very thin. He didn't have any particular high range - my recollection is a high C was a struggle for him, but he'd been playing on it since he was a kid.

How would you describe your lips - thick, thin?
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boog
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:

How would you describe your lips - thick, thin?


Oh, I would say medium thickness.

Funny thing, that Rudy Muck piece disappeared from my trumpet case mysteriously back then. I guess my band director wanted to lead me not into temptation.

Also, as I recall, my private teacher had a few choice swear words to say about the situation!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a very wordy thread, so hope I'm not being redundant, but a mouthpiece (oh God!) comment:

I personally never got along with a 7C so played a Schilke 11. It's basically the same size but with a more comfortable (for me) rim. Good alternate.
(Yamaha 11C4 may work also.)
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
This is a very wordy thread, so hope I'm not being redundant, but a mouthpiece (oh God!) comment:

I personally never got along with a 7C so played a Schilke 11. It's basically the same size but with a more comfortable (for me) rim. Good alternate.
(Yamaha 11C4 may work also.)


From Bach 1 1/4C (25 years)via a succession of Schilkes (variants of 11, 14) to a 7C!
However a Denis Wick Ultra. What happened? Age probably.
I found my final combination one year ago......
Maybe teachers have become more oriented towards this special kid?
No one ever told me what mouthpiece was the "one".. "Take this horn, blow, as if your were going to spit, press the valves. See - sound comes out on the far end. Now go home try to repeat this see you next week". I started the journey on a Salvation Army nr 1, designed for anteaters. 60 years ago. Came with the horn. 1970 my lips simply rejected it hence the Bach. Why? Can´t remember - tested some at the local dealer, seemed OK.
This was the old way.

Obviously this deserves some qualified thinking, testing, like the GR concept.
Gee if my journey had started that way.
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