Teeth Gap Help!

[ryswan]

I decided at the end of last year to get rid of an 1/8 inch gap in my front teeth. (On the gracious recomendation of my future mother-in-law...I couldn't really ignore that....) My orthodonist suggested using Invisilign to make this adjustment which I started last December. These are simply a series of plastic trays that snap over your teeth like retainers that you can take out to eat or play trumpet. Everything was well until about July when I noticed a severe ammount of backpressure and an extremely pinched tone. Once again this is playing with the trays out...so there is nothing unnatural in my mouth while I'm playing. I noticed that if I left the trays out the night before a gig I could play much better than if I removed them right before the gig. I obviously cant keep this up if I want to finish the Invisilign treetment though. I have 6 weeks left, my gap is nearly fully closed, and it is extreremly hard to play. I play third trumpet in my college orchestra and I am considering passing it off since my tone and accuracy are so poor now. I have focused on core compression alot in performance, but just find myslef red-faced with backpressure with hardly a mf dynamic audible. This is so frustrating since I had no intentions of ending my trumpet carrer now at only 24 years old. I need help!

Some random facts that might help:
-I have longer than normal top-front teeth.
-I have a slight over-bight but I always bring my bottom jaw forward and allign the bottom teeth together with the top teeth to play. (i.e. top front teeth rest on the lower-front teeth. Is this normal?)
-I have previously had a range up to an E above high C, but now I rarely have a D.
-I have always had a rich/wide low and mid register, but my high register has been thin. Now, since the Invisilign, almost everything is thin and I have no ff until I hit about low C.
-I used to play a Marcinkiewicz 7, but since the backpressure issue, I have moved to a Bach Megatone 1 1/2 C. This improved slightly at first, but not for long.

Any insight or suggetions is VERY MUCH appreciated!!!

Thanks so much,
Ryan Swanson

[LSOfanboy]

Its clear, you naturally play by channelling the air between your two front teeth (or central maxillary incisors to use the dental terminology), this provides a natural pre-aperture aperture (as it were) and works to generate a constant resistance (which is key to stimulating compression).

As this gap has been closed down you are no longer able to channel air through it in the same manner as you did, indeed the resistance may well have increased and the response will not be what you were used to.

Switching to that huge mouthpiece wasn't a smart move either, I can't understand why a player would run into problems and decide to make a drastic change to some relatively extreme equipment (at least, it is a very different prospect to what you were using).

If you wish to continue playing as you were, then stop the orthodontic treatment. You have already affected the gap, but over time you should grow accustomed to the change in resistance, and this may even work to make your playing more efficient.

If you decide to continue having the gap closed you will need to find another way to regulate the resistance in your playing (tongue arch is the most common) as your dental structure will no longer do this naturally for you.

All the best

[Don Herman rev2]

The situation is the same for anyone dealing with braces or other changes in facial structure. Getting your teeth aligned may be more important to your long-term health than short-term trumpet playing (what does your orthodontist say?) Your teacher should be able to help guide any changes in embouchure and approach (assuming you have one). Your playing should come back, but it may take rethinking your approach and treating it like starting over, or at least starting after a major facial change. Chances are the way you played before will change a little with the new teeth configuration. I would go back to your primary mouthpiece, back off the pressure (mental and physical), focus on fundamentals and sound at low to modest volume, and just rebuild from there.

FWIWFM - Don
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[Turkle]

I had a chip in a front tooth repaired after many years (and urgent nagging by my mother). It closed off airflow that I used to play trumpet - particularly those high notes.

Suffice it to say that it took me about a year to be able to learn to play the trumpet again. I almost quit forever.

I detailed my experience - and my success in learning to play again - in a TH thread, using an embouchure development program sent to me by the late Dave Belknap. (Also explored and endorsed by the late Lex Samu.) It saved my trumpet playing ability after closing off a front tooth gap. Maybe you'll find it helpful as well:

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=145903&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Good luck!
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[cheiden]

My old teacher said that a few of his students using Invisaligns benefited from going up in size just a bit.

But I think that as big a change as you're making, that it's highly unlikely that you're going to be able to play without making some serious adjustments. Rather than struggling to play the old way, you may have to return to a more remedial routine and slowly work your way back up. I know it sounds terrible but if you approach it judiciously it might not take terribly long.
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[trombahonker]

Just see it through, finish the series, get your teeth in order, and let your playing adapt. Spend more time on simple long tones in the morning, give yourself ample time to let the inside of your lips readjust to the surface of your teeth after removing the trays.

Make a smart routine that helps your new weaknesses and you'll do alright. Your playing will change, the feel will change, but if you pursue a good sound and efficiency through lip slurs, long tones, pedals - you'll relearn. Em"brace" the changes and it'll pass.
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[Andy Del]

So, you take your mother-in-law's advice as medical advice? Mistake.
Do you need to have your teeth adjusted for a medical reason? If not, then STOP the invisaline treatment now.

And by the way, if your mother-in-law thinks this is important, I have one word of advice: RUN!

cheers

Andy
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[2many5s]

[Brad361]

[John Mohan]

You're changing the underlying structure of your embouchure and it's going to take proper practice of the fundamentals (Flexibilities, Clarke Technical Studies and similar exercises, and perhaps the Part 1 and 2 Maggio-type Range Exercises throughout Claude Gordon's book Systematic Approach to Daily Practice), and enough time spent doing that to get things back to normal (and beyond) for you.

That Bach 1-1/2C is not a "huge mouthpiece" as someone claimed. It's a fine mouthpiece and since it is helping you, by all means, stay with it.

You cannot expect to almost instantly solve this problem. How long did it take you to get as good as you were? The good news is, it won't take that long to get back. But it won't be done in the next 48 hours either. Just practice, be patient, and don't worry.

"Impatience is the enemy of the ambitious player. The reason is because you are developing and coordinating muscular action and cannot rush ahead any faster than nature will allow."
- Claude Gordon

I hope this is helpful to you.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested
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[ryswan]

Thank you all very much for the helpful replies. I think I am going to continue the Invisilign (after a couple big concerts in December). When its done, I will just plan on spending the time on "relearning" as several mentioned. I will also take advantage of the specific routines that were sent.

Thanks again!!

-Ryan

[samdelong]

Try pointing the horn more towards the ground. After getting braces off a couple of years ago, I could no longer play through the gap in my teeth and ended up pointing the horn down to get more air through the gap in my teeth.

[ryswan]

[Jon_Manness]

I recommend checking out the Balanced Embouchure forum. Since your teeth are closing, you may have to pull down your upper lip further below your top teeth so that the air can vibrate the lip. There are exercises in Jeff's book that can make sure your lip is in the right place and really improve your sound, especially in the upper register where you're thinning out.

-Jon
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[trumpetchops]

[dstpt]

I went through an Invisalign process...3-4-year plan. Also had a frenectomy performed at the base of my tongue, after my Pankey dentist noticed that I was tongue-tied! Yep, after playing professionally full time for several years, we finally discovered why had to work so hard on passages like the Ballerina Dance from Petrouchka! I finished the Invisalign about two years ago (if the timeline in my head is correct). Did it help my playing? Yes. I believe it did. Many factors to consider in my case, though, coming from a struggle with embouchure dystonia a few years before. Was the frenectomy worth it? Yes, definitely. My single tonguing is better/smoother/more consistent than ever.

Now, here's the craziest thing I ever did and some may consider this to be the boldest thing they’ve ever read about a trumpet player ever doing: As we were nearing Invisalign completion, we started working on the front top right crown replacement (only half of that original tooth is there as a result of me tripping and falling on a gym floor in 4th grade! ouch! still hurts in my memory!). I had read about other trumpeters that had solid to incredible high notes and had a space between their upper two teeth (Doc Severinsen, Cat Anderson, Steve Patrick, others). I actually had my Pankey dentist create a space between my upper two teeth! (She is a crafts-person of the highest order with respect to shaping teeth cosmetically.) She agreed as I sat in the chair. She created the space...I looked in the hand mirror and approved...and I walked out in full confidence that she could reverse it if it was a bust.

I got home and for two days, I practiced with that space. I quickly discovered that it did not help my playing and would have meant a considerable adjustment to realize a positive change. I was able to avoid smiling in front of my wife during this time, and to this day, she never knew it happened! She would have freaked! It was an experiment, I know, and my dentist was able to “correct” it after two days. No problems. But apparently for those that have had this space, they seem to instinctively direct the air stream between it and gain a lot of compression that aids in high-note production…at least some notable players have. Obviously, there’s a lot more that goes into a player with this setup evolving with this advantage.

To the OP: You might consider viewing the Steve Patrick master class online from 2014. He talks about being a high-note player growing up, getting braces, and then having the orthodontist re-create the original V-shape (and, I think, space, but it's been awhile since I viewed that video, and I'm not positive about the space) of/at the upper two front teeth…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q1tAOHxdEo

[scott@95603]

[Trumpetingbynurture]

You just have to practice getting the top lip down below your top teeth a bit.

I would suggest playing some pedal tones and practice moving from pedals into the low, mid and then upper register. Pedals seem to 'recalibrate' things.

If you can't get the top lip down enough, the alternative is you have to play with the top lip puckered forward (and rolled in) so that it's not getting entirely sandwiched between the teeth and the mouthpiece.

[MusicByThePound]

I would be interested in hearing more stories from players who have closed their tooth gaps.

Trying to weigh the plus/minus benefits of "fixing" overbite and tooth gap as part of a good health plan for older age.

Since I have always had a gap, sounds like one idea would be to not close the gap all the way.

To the comments about getting the lip down below the top teeth - does changing overbite help move the lip down "naturally" because the teeth moved in? You would think the top/bottom jaw would line up better, the space between top/bottom teeth would change, and the mpc would move up the on the top lip - any truth to this?

Also - since you can take the invisalign out and play like a regular person every day, is it easier to absorb the changes into your playing vs. braces?

Anybody ever had a frenectomy on the string that connects the inside top lip to the top gum?

Thanks

[trumpetchops]