Gold Lacquer

[dstpt]

A contact person for a custom builder wrote this as a finish option:

"Gold lacquer over silver plating (looks like gold plating)"

I have seen gold lacquer on some Adams and other horns in recent years, so I imagine it's a relatively new finish, and some have referred to it as a "poor man's gold plating," especially since gold has skyrocketed over the past, what, 15 years?

The first thing that caught my attention in the quoted statement above is: Why would the horn have to be silver plated before applying gold lacquer? Normally, lacquer is applied directly to the brass, but platers typically apply (plate) a thin coat of silver before regular gold plating, since gold will not adhere to brass directly, at least, not dependably. Does "gold lacquer" contain actual gold, such that it also will not adhere directly to brass? This builder normally sells raw brass horns, btw.

The second part of my questions is for those that have a gold lacquered horn or have considered that option: How does it look to your eye compared to actual gold plating (i.e. does it look cheap?), and how has the gold lacquer stood up over time?

[Tony Scodwell]

In my experience, any lacquer directly over silver is not long lived as witness the sterling Bachs in past years. Virtually all have the lacquer peeling off. The usual gold lacquer treatment is when the lacquer has a gold tint dye added to the clear lacquer and sprayed in the conventional way on a raw brass trumpet. The gold "look" can be very convincing depending on who is doing the lacquer and for sure replicates the look of gold plating when done well. I had several horns finished by Kanstul where they sprayed the trumpet with clear lacquer and then baked the horn to achieve a gold look which definitely varied from light to a very rose gold look. Kanstul no longer does this process and Charlie Melk will do gold lacquer and is the highest quality I've ever seen.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

[Rod Haney]

Tony what about Harry’s super 20’s I’ve seen quite a few that held up well, but that’s not a plated horn? You’ve seen a lot more than me, didn’t those hold up ok?
Tom Green also does a killer gold lacquer if you can get on his list. His work is superior.
Rod

[Walter Bone]

[cheiden]

Some pretty pictures of various plating options here. No mention of lacquering over silver.
http://www.eclipsetrumpets.com/?page_id=3605
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Tony Scodwell]

I never saw any of Harry James' King Silver Sonic trumpets that were lacquered over the silver. I've polished a few of those sterling bells and leadpipes.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

[Dale Proctor]

I've always understood that gold lacquer was just clear with some tinting added to make it slightly yellow-colored. Sprayed over polished brass, it gives the darker effect of gold plating. Years ago, I had the silver plating on the inside of a bell flare polished off and the brass sprayed with tinted lacquer, and it looked like gold plating at a fraction of the cost.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[dstpt]

I have learned more recently that it is best to lacquer a copper-plated horn or sections thereof, since copper oxidizes so quickly (...unless you like your horns green, right?! Not that there's anything wrong with that....) But most makers/manufacturers do not (clear) lacquer silver nor gold. Silver will oxidize, as we know, but it will take some time to show. I have seen horns from the mid-1900s and before that had a clear coat on top of silver. It must have been a "thing" at the time. Gold will virtually never oxidize, but I've seen it show signs of discoloration, which I suppose is the accumulation of microscopic sediments of dirt and debris over time. Blue Magic Polish Cream and like products seem to work well on gold plate, (although, there's probably someone here that will say never to use that, so I guess my gold-plated horns will be toast in a couple of years!) The notion that the builder in question will put gold lacquer on top of silver plating is perplexing, though, which makes me think that the person that wrote the email is merely misled or wrote that while in a hurry. I'll let you all know if I get clarification on this.

[Ed Kennedy]

[HERMOKIWI]

I have a Selmer K-Modified that I've always assumed was in gold lacquer. I looked at it closely this evening and I'm pretty certain my assumption is correct: the leadpipe is in nickel silver and it's just a hair less "gold" than the rest of the horn. If the leadpipe was gold plated instead of lacquered and the rest of the horn was also gold plated the color of the leadpipe would match the rest of the horn.

The above being said, I have 8 gold plated horns in my collection and if you put the Selmer K-Modified next to any of them the Selmer looks just as "gold plated" as the horns that really are gold plated. It's beautiful. I assume that the gold lacquer was applied over brass and not over silver plating. It seems to me that if the horn had been silver plated first then the color of the leadpipe would match the color of the rest of the horn. Since it doesn't and since the rest of the horn is more "gold" I think my assumption is sound.

The fact that I can't really distinguish the gold lacquer on the Selmer from real gold plating on the other horns speaks for itself. This is a really good way to get a "gold plated" look for way less than the price of real gold plating.
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[James Becker]

Yes, Tony is correct, lacquer does not bond well to silver plate or Bach's 99.9% pure silver "Sterling Plus" bells. Gold dye can mimic the look of gold plate, but is best achieved when the instrument is made from ALL brass with no other alloys. A perfect example of when not to gold lacquer are Eastlake Conn 88H trombones. These are made with four alloys, yellow brass, gold brass, nickel and red brass. Thankfully Conn-Selmer has returned to a clear epoxy finish on their Conn 88H trombones, the deep gold color King lacquer never looked right, and forget about it when the finish begins to wear off.

Also keep in mind, nitrocellulose lacquer that Bach uses yellows with age due to UV exposure. This is why vintage Bach instruments develop a darker appearance,not because they were gold dye lacquered in the first place. This also explains why Paris Selmer instruments that were originally gold dye lacquered look have a much darker appearance with over time

My 2 cents.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[shofarguy]

[dstpt]

[shofarguy]