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What do you feel when your chops are tired?



 
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jazzvuu
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: What do you feel when your chops are tired? Reply with quote

I was wondering what everyone else feel like when they are tired/fatigue from playing trumpet. For me, I don't really feel it in my corners but my lips get swollen but more flappy (like the water in a ballon versus the jiggly of a firm jello, if that make sense). I don't necessary lose range but the ability to hold long phrases (the more tired I get, the short that phrase length gets). I also feel like my lips don't want to vibrato naturally so I have to use more air pressure to get them going which usually lead to bad things like unnecessary body tension (especially in my chest and core).

So is that pretty universal or does "running out of chops" a different feeling to you?
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me the primary characteristic of fatigue is a breakdown in the ability to sustain a note. Generally, for me, these are going to be notes from A (one line above the staff) and up. I have to experience a lot of fatigue to get to that point but a breakdown in the ability to sustain these notes is a clear sign.
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Sharkbaitboi
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't feel
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:20 am    Post subject: Re: What do you feel when your chops are tired? Reply with quote

jazzvuu wrote:
I was wondering what everyone else feel like when they are tired/fatigue from playing trumpet. For me, I don't really feel it in my corners but my lips get swollen but more flappy (like the water in a ballon versus the jiggly of a firm jello, if that make sense). I don't necessary lose range but the ability to hold long phrases (the more tired I get, the short that phrase length gets). I also feel like my lips don't want to vibrato naturally so I have to use more air pressure to get them going which usually lead to bad things like unnecessary body tension (especially in my chest and core).

So is that pretty universal or does "running out of chops" a different feeling to you?


For me it´s the vibrations that seem to "fade away" - if I get tired; also a feeling of numbness, I guess lactid acid is building up. To counteract this I usually try to blow double pedals, gently,
As you write it´s all too easy to use too much pressure - which only stalls the vibrations. Vicious circle.
Noticing a lip condition in a state of becoming during a gig can make you tense, nervous which in its turn might induce stiffness, dry mouth you name it - taking away the necessary concentration maintaining the correct embouchure.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am 6 weeks into another comeback so this subject is "in my face" right now. Playing 30-40 bars of an etude or Getchell melody causes my corners to burn and the embouchure muscles to break down. Resting for a few minutes and the muscles recover.

Working on shorter range building exercises and the breathing system hits a wall. The corners are ok but there is some muscle fatigue in the rear jaw muscles. Sometimes there are subtle spasms in the diaphragm area and back muscles around the rib cage.

I am older so lung capacity and strength has diminished. But I have enough.It is the fine motor skills of the embouchure that will take weeks and months of work to recover my range which was solid but not a screamer.

Best of luck,

Gordon Stump
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharkbaitboi wrote:
I don't feel




You're good. You should start a Patreon account.
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually lose my mental focus before my "chops" get tired.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe you are ultimately asking the question: am I playing the trumpet correctly?

The thing about chasing "feel" is that it almost never works out. People talk about corners burning, cheeks, and more. Everybody's experience is unique and to tell somebody they should tire in the same manner that I tire is a little funny to me. Then if we believe we should tire in the corners (or wherever) we start over-exerting them in order to achieve that particular feel so that we can assure ourselves we are playing the trumpet correctly.

A better question to ask is: am I playing trumpet the way I want to/believe the trumpet should be played (this can include breath, sound, et al). Then there is no right or wrong, just you.

Personally, I know I'm tired when it begins to be more effortful mentally (not mentally fatigued, but i really have to pay attention to the stuff I don't usually have to pay attention to). I don't think I've really ever felt my corners. Keep the chops fresh!
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jazzvuu
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abontrumpet wrote:
I believe you are ultimately asking the question: am I playing the trumpet correctly?

The thing about chasing "feel" is that it almost never works out. People talk about corners burning, cheeks, and more. Everybody's experience is unique and to tell somebody they should tire in the same manner that I tire is a little funny to me. Then if we believe we should tire in the corners (or wherever) we start over-exerting them in order to achieve that particular feel so that we can assure ourselves we are playing the trumpet correctly.

A better question to ask is: am I playing trumpet the way I want to/believe the trumpet should be played (this can include breath, sound, et al). Then there is no right or wrong, just you.

Personally, I know I'm tired when it begins to be more effortful mentally (not mentally fatigued, but i really have to pay attention to the stuff I don't usually have to pay attention to). I don't think I've really ever felt my corners. Keep the chops fresh!


I guess any discussion on this forum would be to see if we can get more information to know if we are doing it right.

I do disagree that "chasing" the feeling is bad though as most trumpet fundamentals are taught in that manner. We first are given or acquire a target sound concept, then we strive to make that sound. Teachers help by identifying the sound, pointing out things that might be hindering that sound, and then re-enforcing to students what they are "feeling" as they play. If we heard the sound to react to it, we are late. By remembering feelings of a produce sound, we are able to use that information to go for consistency.

As for how I think the trumpet should be play is not a good foundation as I have come far from all the bad habits of my beginnings. Between lessons, watching tons of trumpet clinics from folks like Allen Vizzutti, James Morrison, John Hagstrom, Chris Martin, Arturo Sandoval, (the list goes on), and playing with fellow great musicians in my community, I have not been the same type of trumpet player (approach, not talking about style) in any given consecutive year in the past 5 years. Always learning, or striving for better sound, or more efficient/endurance, clearer technique, range, etc.

The effortful mentally is something I can related to in my playing. The more I have to think about breathing right or physical stuff is usually a sign of getting tire.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Its an interesting question.

Everyone has a different physiology and, in my opinion, every player produces their sound with a slightly different balance of the variables. This is a combination of air-usage (including compression), throat balance, shape and use of oral cavity and (related) tongue arch, dental structure, the nature of the lip surface (thick/thin/tight/loose) and to a small degree the influence of the obicularis oris muscle around the lips.

This means that everyone will feel fatigue slightly differently and there is no right or wrong 'way' to fatigue, but that being said you may desire to adjust the balance in your playing if a particular part of your system is a weakness and fatigues quickly.

My specific set up relies heavily on my natural dental structure and works as a high-resistance system. My face is very very relaxed, I play with a (controlled) degree of inflation and with only a tiny amount of 'muscle' engagement in my face. I can say, with absolute honesty, that since I have played this way (years and years) I have never felt strain or fatigue in my facial muscles (the obicularis oris) despite some very heavy playing schedules. What I do experience, after an intense period of playing, is actually a tightness (or lack of full flexibility) in my abdomen and lower back (presumably from the over-extension of the inter-costal muscles during compression of air). In addition to this I also tend to get a small but noticeable amount of lip swelling. 95% of the time it has no effect but on the odd occasion I will move to a slightly deeper mouthpiece until the swelling has subsided. When my lip is a little swollen I have to take care of my production, soft and controlled entries are the thing that can go wrong if I don't keep my concentration up.

To summarise the effects of (fairly intense, let's say a 6 hour rehearsal day with an hour's warm-up.practice beforehand) fatigue on my playing: my range will remain virtually unchanged, the dynamic range will diminish (the extremes of dynamic will become more difficult to achieve with consistency), the sound may start to contain tiny blemishes (little bits of spit etc. I think where the lip surface has swollen a little from its usual shape) and soft entries are not as easy as on a fresh lip. When I find my abdomen tiring (that would be after a long day playing high and loud) then I must start to watch the high register moving sharp, often this is through using triggers to adjust and (as little as I can get away with) slowly moving the tuning slide out.

Hope this can add to the discussion

All the best
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
Hi,

Its an interesting question.

Everyone has a different physiology and, in my opinion, every player produces their sound with a slightly different balance of the variables. This is a combination of air-usage (including compression), throat balance, shape and use of oral cavity and (related) tongue arch, dental structure, the nature of the lip surface (thick/thin/tight/loose) and to a small degree the influence of the obicularis oris muscle around the lips.

This means that everyone will feel fatigue slightly differently and there is no right or wrong 'way' to fatigue, but that being said you may desire to adjust the balance in your playing if a particular part of your system is a weakness and fatigues quickly.

My specific set up relies heavily on my natural dental structure and works as a high-resistance system. My face is very very relaxed, I play with a (controlled) degree of inflation and with only a tiny amount of 'muscle' engagement in my face. I can say, with absolute honesty, that since I have played this way (years and years) I have never felt strain or fatigue in my facial muscles (the obicularis oris) despite some very heavy playing schedules. What I do experience, after an intense period of playing, is actually a tightness (or lack of full flexibility) in my abdomen and lower back (presumably from the over-extension of the inter-costal muscles during compression of air). In addition to this I also tend to get a small but noticeable amount of lip swelling. 95% of the time it has no effect but on the odd occasion I will move to a slightly deeper mouthpiece until the swelling has subsided. When my lip is a little swollen I have to take care of my production, soft and controlled entries are the thing that can go wrong if I don't keep my concentration up.

To summarise the effects of (fairly intense, let's say a 6 hour rehearsal day with an hour's warm-up.practice beforehand) fatigue on my playing: my range will remain virtually unchanged, the dynamic range will diminish (the extremes of dynamic will become more difficult to achieve with consistency), the sound may start to contain tiny blemishes (little bits of spit etc. I think where the lip surface has swollen a little from its usual shape) and soft entries are not as easy as on a fresh lip. When I find my abdomen tiring (that would be after a long day playing high and loud) then I must start to watch the high register moving sharp, often this is through using triggers to adjust and (as little as I can get away with) slowly moving the tuning slide out.

Hope this can add to the discussion

All the best


'
Oh - you have described, precicely, what I do experience - reflecting on all the answers, including my own. But in a much more illuminating way! I completely forgot those abdominal reactions, among other observations.
Thanks - you definitively added to my understanding.
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abontrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jazzvuu wrote:


1. I guess any discussion on this forum would be to see if we can get more information to know if we are doing it right.

2. I do disagree that "chasing" the feeling is bad though as most trumpet fundamentals are taught in that manner. We first are given or acquire a target sound concept, then we strive to make that sound. Teachers help by identifying the sound, pointing out things that might be hindering that sound, and then re-enforcing to students what they are "feeling" as they play. If we heard the sound to react to it, we are late. By remembering feelings of a produce sound, we are able to use that information to go for consistency.

3. As for how I think the trumpet should be play is not a good foundation as I have come far from all the bad habits of my beginnings. Between lessons, watching tons of trumpet clinics from folks like Allen Vizzutti, James Morrison, John Hagstrom, Chris Martin, Arturo Sandoval, (the list goes on), and playing with fellow great musicians in my community, I have not been the same type of trumpet player (approach, not talking about style) in any given consecutive year in the past 5 years. Always learning, or striving for better sound, or more efficient/endurance, clearer technique, range, etc.

4. The effortful mentally is something I can related to in my playing. The more I have to think about breathing right or physical stuff is usually a sign of getting tire.


Added numbers to make this easier:

1. Agreed. But sometimes trying to get things "right" according to xyz internet stranger can be a hinderance

2. I think we have different definitions of feel and its importance. What you described with target trumpet sound and its acquisition is exactly how i would describe not playing by "feel." My definition of playing by feel is for some teacher to say, this is how everything should feel...if you can make it feel that way you'll be good. I would argue by producing the sound and being aware of how it feels (vs. being focused on it) will lead us to the promised land. Awareness vs focus.

In the number of lessons and clinics I've seen/participated: bill vermeulen, eric aubier, guillaume jehl, chris martin, kevin cobb, ray mase, phil smith...the list goes on: the best teachers are able to get the student better without almost any focus on what the physicality of what is happening. Instead, they do as you describe: identifying things in sound and guiding us to better playing.

In short, I think we agree on what it means to get better but for some reason you've attributed what I am referring to as playing by feel. It's where language fails!

3. Again...seems like we agree once again. "Always learning, or striving for better sound, or more efficient/endurance, clearer technique, range, etc." Learning shapes the way we think the trumpet should be playing so "how we think it should be played" is always evolving. But you have to play in the way you (currently) think the trumpet should be played. If you are constantly adjusting (in the moment) and second guessing you'll go nowhere quickly. You can assess over long periods of time about what works and what doesn't...but you need a baseline. I believe we intrinsically know when we are working harder than we need to and when we are not being efficient. So listening to that "voice" is important to my worldview in my description.

EDIT: Just realized you are the OP. You seem knowledgable so sounds like you're asking for a very specific reason. But given that you seem to have great knowledge, i find it interesting that you're this particular question!

To answer your question to somebody with your knowledge: I experience something similar with my lips not in the corners but more how you describe it.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
For me the primary characteristic of fatigue is a breakdown in the ability to sustain a note. Generally, for me, these are going to be notes from A (one line above the staff) and up. I have to experience a lot of fatigue to get to that point but a breakdown in the ability to sustain these notes is a clear sign.


That sounds about right to me. Going for the G (or whatever) and having it kind of sputter out - that's the first sign. It's worse when you go and get nothing but air.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A burning sensation in the facial muscles surrounding the embouchure and the resultant inability to sustain notes above a certain range as others have mentioned. Not too much physical soreness because I don't beat on my chops if I get tired.
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know things are heading south when my front top teeth start to ache
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
Sharkbaitboi wrote:
I don't feel




You're good. You should start a Patreon account.


He undoubtedly already has one.😎

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hotterthanjuly
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: When chops are tired Reply with quote

If I'm out of shape, lower facial pain is what I feel. Running out of muscular endurance during a gig, especially when exposed in a duo or trio, is quite unpleasant mentally and physically. It's not worth it to me accepting a long gig if I'm not properly conditioned. The sound progressively worsens and one can't execute.
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outskiing
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Book on Improving Chops Reply with quote

I found a little book on Kindle called "How to Improve Your Chops Without Playing a Note" by David Boe which I've found to be useful. It has some simple exercises that have helped me to improve my endurance.
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kyleownsyour
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Usually for me my corners start to burn a little, and I notice that I start using pressure to compensate for my muscles tiring. As soon as that happens I put the horn down
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