Conn Victor 80A Cornet Tuning bar Dimensions ?

Abraxas

Just got a Conn Victor New Wonder (80 A, I guess) and it is in pretty rough shape. It is missing that long slat that runs from the opera glass tuner to the third slide via the middle slide. Fortunately I have a pretty decent machine shop and can make most items. I need a good look at this bar though and all the better some dimensions. Can anyone help ? Thank you.

CartersPop · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:25 am Post subject:

I have my old pop's 1922 80A with the mechanism of which I believe you speak, and hopefully the photographic and educational skill to demonstrate and explain it. Bear with me.

80A extended cornets came in various configurations and in various years may have been called New Wonders and Victors with or without "mechanism" in large 2 1/2 bore, although other variations exist using different features, bores, pitch, etc.. and called with different model names and numbers but similar design. A pretty long lasting and versatile design it seems.

First off it can be confusing terminology, but there are actually two different, separate and unique systems in play in the 80A design, the "opera glass" tuning crook and the "Bb-A tuning slide mechanism". All 80A's have the opera glass tuning device at the mouthpiece end of the horn as their primary micro-adjustment of overall horn tune to be used in lieu of a regular tuning slide positioned at the bell end (even though this horn also has the "regular" tuning slide). Some of the early 80A's have the "Bb-A quick key adjustment interlinked mechanism" which is a bit more complicated but quite elegant in design and function. For now ignore the opera glass and simply use it to tune the overall base pitch of the instrument.

First pic shows the "Bb-A mechanism" from the front showing the long flat actuator rod I think you need measurements of. Mine is 5 inches long and 1/4 inch across.

The mechanism works to quickly shift the whole horn's overall tune from the key of Bb to A with one simple movement of extending the main tuning slide (the one at the bell end) out fully. A hook on the front of the bottom part of that main tuning slide grabs a lip on back of the third slide and extends it a set distance to correct its pitch. From the front of the third slide a fitting extends that levers a short flat rod out, which in turn elevates the bell end of the long flat rod and extends it backward pushing out the first slide while running under the hook of the second slide and elevating it a couple mm. This one move of extending the main tuning slide mechanically adjusts the three valve slides just the right amount to correct the overall tune of the horn from baseline Bb into A (one movement makes 4 adjustments). When you want to go back to Bb you push the main tuning slide back in and another hook grabs the lip on the back of the third slide and reverses the mechanism putting everything back into starting position again, back in Bb. Mechanical but elegant. Notice however that this mechanism is not in any way attached to or influencing the opera glass. Separate.

Close up top view of the "hook" on the main tuning slide that starts the mechanism for the other three slides:

Top view of horn with Bb-A mechanism set in Bb standard mode:

Top view of horn with Bb-A mechanism extended into A tune mode:

Note the extended main tuning slide, third slide, slightly lifted second slide, and extended first slide positions.

Here is a pic along the long rod outside the third slide showing the slot under the second valve slide crook with that slide a couple mm elevated in A mode.

Hope this helps. If you need anything more let me know. Just remember that the mechanism and main tuning slide is only used when you make the big key change to take the whole horn from standard Bb into A. Any micro adjustments to overall horn can then be made with the opera glass spinner which acts as the main tuning slide in this complex design. Versions of the 80A without the mechanism basically have redundant systems for tuning the horn manually instead of mechanically. Pretty neat. Works too.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

Abraxas · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:00 am Post subject:

Thank you so much for all this work. I can certainly make one of these in a pinch. I may elect to buy another one of these horns with the piece so I can take a more precise measurement. They sure are great horns !! You also answered a lot of other questions I had about the mechanism and I am very thankful I didn't need to ask more questions and trespass on anyone's generousity. Cheers.

CartersPop · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:37 am Post subject:

Pleasure to do it. No way to trespass on generosity since it is a gift and not an intrusion. We are after all a community of people with common or at least overlapping interests.

Post some pics when you get her up into playing condition. My Pops horn is silver with gold finish, but I have seen various other finishes such as shiny or buff silver, classic lacquer, and bare brass, and a few from the early 20's with the copper valve casing showing. Mostly see them pre-purchase on the-bay but really like to see what they look like when they are back into playing condition. Hearing them is even better too. Enjoy and good luck.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

Abraxas · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:02 pm Post subject:

Of course everything has now gone to hell in a hand basket. This horn was so hopelessly neglected that all the compound slides were stuck. I got all of them freed but the middle one as it is corroded on. I'm actually going to have to make all but the U tube on my lathe as it is shot. The valve stems are all cross threaded. I can't make any sense of them at all. I'm wondering if someone got mismatched valve stems and forced them on with pliers as there are plier marks all over them. I measured the diameter of the valve stem threads and they came out to 0.450.... an odd size and my thread gauge suggests 40 TPI. Put the two together and you don't get anything even remotely close to a standard thread. Which brings me to another question: Does anyone know what these threads are ? It's made in the USA a hundred years ago so metric is ruled out.

CartersPop · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:14 pm Post subject:

I am sorry to hear of your troubles with what I am sure you hope will be a fun project ending in a nice playable horn. Although I am reasonably mechanically competent, I am not technologically talented enough to be much help with the threading on your valve caps other than to offer pictures of my pop's horn parts, as I have no idea how to measure that stuff.

I just won what looks like a nice complete and decent shape 1935 80A auction tonite and expect the horn by next weekend or so to enter my own period of misery before ultimate joy. And I am still working on my #2 King Liberty project right now. Hopefully merely cosmetic problems and getting things generally ship-shape.

Let me know if I can help in any way, or if you just need an electronic shoulder to cry on.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

Abraxas · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:33 pm Post subject:

Thanks Carters Pop. It has been a real roller coaster with this horn and now it's got me all the more determined to fix it. Since the valve stem was stripped right out of the top of the valve casing and the seller felt bad enough that he refunded the entire cost, including shipping and told me to keep it, I don't mind spending a bunch more time on it.

There were some very fine traces of thread left in the valve casing and the valve stem outer diameter was a badly worn 0.448 inches, with 40 threads per inch. I made a brass insert for the valve at about 0.474 with a bit of taper in the first few threads and screwed it in nice and snug.

When I have either a 7/16 or more likely 3/8 National Fine tap in my hands hopefully tomorrow. I will put that thread into the brass insert and make a whole new matching valve stem out of stainless steel. The thing is with the valve stem, it too has a very thin wall, where the thread is. I was hoping i could just remove the old thread and cut a new standard one underneath but there is not enough material on the wall so I have to make a new one.

Those engineers at Conn sure liked their 40 threads per inch. It's even on the button caps. Let me know if you need any minimal machining Carter's Pop and, worse case scenario, I may have a parts horn that we can both feast on. OH and by the way, I am making a series of videos to post on Youtube along the way to show people what I did.

CartersPop · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:57 pm Post subject:

You definitely have more mechanical technological knowledge and ability than I would ever consider achieving in re: these kinds of repairs. So far I have stuck with the minimal repairs and general cleaning and buffing approach to my early collection. My current big "fix up" thread is about something so simple as clacking valves needing new springs as the likely fix. Lucky that way so far. Although there is an Amati Krasclice horn sitting on my desk that I am slowly pulling pieces off to maybe be able to get it back into serviceable condition, although it really is a piece of crap and probably not worth any time or effort. I got it more for the grins of just working on something with my hands and brains.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

Abraxas · Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:24 pm Post subject:

It's a pity this website, nice as it is, can't accommodate photos and videos. Even when using alternate links, they expire pretty quick so we have a pile of historical posts that reference photos that can no longer be seen.

CartersPop · Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:22 pm Post subject:

Hey Abraxas. Just got another new baby in the post a couple days ago -- 1935 Conn 80A New Wonder with mechanism in loose and perfect working order, just needs a bit of a bath and some loving. Now my son and I can duet with twin horns, his grandpa's 1922 and my 1935. They are both really sweet players too for being 94 and 83 years old -- valves like buttah.

Did you ever get your push-rod 80A part machined up and installed? If so how's she play for you? Pics?

jeff
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari

Abraxas · Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:44 pm Post subject:

No I haven't but I did manage to mess the horn up trying to free the stuck slides. I'm now working on making a mandrel to see what's up with the suddenly tight valves. I also have another on the way but it's a later model without the mechanism. I heard that mechanism is seldom used by anyone , but I don't know.

I did get the one valve with the stripped threads nicely repaired but haven't posted the video yet.

delano · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:24 am Post subject:

The mechanisme is nice in a display cabinet or in a museum but don't overestimate it for use. I used my (1942) 80A only a very few times in A, put out the tuning slide (I fixed the stoppers on a slightly low A) and pull out the valve slides 1 and 3 just a little bit. You might use a tuner for that. Then you can play easily with the guitar heroes. The mechanisme is in fact only dead weight. Maybe in the past it was useful, it's possible that they changed the tuning on and off during a gig.
BTW there are quite a lot of guitarplayers/singers who tune their guitars a half step down, no problem at all.

Abraxas · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:56 am Post subject:

Yes Delano, I play guitar also and although they can detune a half step down, it's more common to play in major open tunings if they do anything. I'm not sure what the help is in tuning to an A for pop music but I'm probably just missing something. I too heard that few players ever use "the mechanism".

I'm really kicking myself in the ass now as I had to use brute force and torch to get the slides unstuck....well the middle slide in particular. I don't know how I did it but I have done something that makes all three valves barely movable. Buggered up a sweet sounding, in tune horn to get the mechanism to work. And I'm now gonna spend 40 hours trying to get back to where I was.

Needless to say, time is money, so I've already bought replacement horns.

delano · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:47 am Post subject:

I said guitarplayers/singers. For the use of the common chords when the voice is not really there they tune down for the singing. Was quite common in my memory. Steve Stills tuned back sometimes a whole tone in life music. And in country they use sometimes a D tuned guitar (D-A-D-G-A-D) for more brilliant scales. I played quite often ( I was for years a bass guitar player) with a guitarplayer who owned one of the first strats and to keep that gem alife he tuned it in Eflat.

For your 80A: I can't see it from here but I really hope you did not messed up your valve block. A valve block and brute force are no friends. There is a reason that even experienced trumpetplayers leave things like stuck slides and stuck valves to the repair pros.

CartersPop · Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:18 pm Post subject:

Yes, praying as well that the valve block is not torqued or worse cooked.

I think the mechanism is an elegant leftover of late 1800's european influenced music where it was not uncommon to go back and forth into A even in the middle of some pieces, and where 1 horn was expe ted to be versatile enough to handle all comers. I think the mechanism was an inventive way of achieving the basic goal of a quick hardware change (into the phonebooth as Clark Kent, out as Superman) of just a single now multipurpose dual key horn. I think a lot of that type and style of music became less popular around and after WWI with the switch over from community concert and dance bands to the indoor club scenes and upcoming jazz and big bands and the like modern genres. I seriously doubt anyone thought the mechanism useful or necessary in the latter situations, which is why it starts disappearing on models in the early 1930's.
_________________
Olds NA5MS Cor
Conn '22 80A New Wonder Cor w/m
White '15 King Liberty Silver Trum
Conn '27 22B New York Symphony Trum
White '25 King Liberty Silver Trum
JinYin '15 Marching Bb Fr Horn
Conn '35 New Wonder 80A Corn w/m
Pan-Am '23 40I Bari