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ashenfang Regular Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2018 Posts: 15
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:38 am Post subject: Need some advice on a new mouthpiece |
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I am struggling on finding a new mouthpiece. About a month ago I picked the horn back up after a 15 year hiatus, practicing for 1-2 hours per day. Things have come back pretty quick but I am beginning to think that my body (lips/mouth/teeth) have changed over these years.
Presently, I am playing on a Bach 3C. I have good tone and decent range (reliably and cleanly up to a "C" above the staff). But, something with the 3C just feels "off" and find myself tiring quickly in the upper register. It almost feels like there is a lack of support to my embouchure. I tried playing on my Schilke 14A4A and I find it even more difficult with the sound becoming more "airy" and more effort required for higher playing.
So this is where I am stuck. I need something like a 3C, but with better embouchure support. A few friends have suggested trying a Bobby Shew lead but I am certainly open to suggestions. |
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LSOfanboy Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Need some advice on a new mouthpiece |
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ashenfang wrote: | I am struggling on finding a new mouthpiece. About a month ago I picked the horn back up after a 15 year hiatus, practicing for 1-2 hours per day. Things have come back pretty quick but I am beginning to think that my body (lips/mouth/teeth) have changed over these years.
Presently, I am playing on a Bach 3C. I have good tone and decent range (reliably and cleanly up to a "C" above the staff). But, something with the 3C just feels "off" and find myself tiring quickly in the upper register. It almost feels like there is a lack of support to my embouchure. I tried playing on my Schilke 14A4A and I find it even more difficult with the sound becoming more "airy" and more effort required for higher playing.
So this is where I am stuck. I need something like a 3C, but with better embouchure support. A few friends have suggested trying a Bobby Shew lead but I am certainly open to suggestions. |
Hi,
If what you write about achieving a reliable high C after just a couple of months is genuine and not inflated, I would say you are definitely doing something right and would advise you stick with what you have- it certainly isn't hindering you.
If you really want to change (personally I don't think that is sensible) then the experience with the Schilke has shown that you won't respond well to a shallower cup. I would suggest you want to find something with a similar (medium) depth but perhaps a different shaped rim. The Bach options might be a 5C, 7C or a 3CW. Or try a Warburton 4M or 4MD, Schilke 13C4 or 14B4 or a Denis Wick 3C or MM3C.
Once again, I wouldn't suggest you change. Stick with what you have and continue your good progress without rocking the boat.
All the best |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8964 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Need some advice on a new mouthpiece |
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I personally prefer a Schilke or Curry rim at that size (I play Purviances, obviously endorsing them also), but I actually have this question for you: how long did you have to build up your endurance before, and why do you think you can suddenly, after a long layoff, build it at warp speed?
It seems to me that you are on the right track and just need some time and patience. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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Andy Del Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2660 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Having had a layoff for a few weeks due to illness and then rebulding my playing, I truely feel you need do nothing about your mouthpiece: yet.
It will take much more time to really build your endurance, so tiring fast in the upper register it totally understandable. Just keep practicing, RESTING often and you'll find in a few months that it really is better.
The key for saying this is that you find a shallower mouthpiece harder to work with. Despite much of common legend, playing on smaller / shallower mouthpieces can require more, not less strength and control. So, you are probably in the right place, just needing more time.
Back to the practice room with 'ya!
cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes... |
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deleted_user_680e93b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Need some advice on a new mouthpiece |
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ashenfang wrote: | I am struggling on finding a new mouthpiece. About a month ago I picked the horn back up after a 15 year hiatus, practicing for 1-2 hours per day. Things have come back pretty quick but I am beginning to think that my body (lips/mouth/teeth) have changed over these years.
Presently, I am playing on a Bach 3C. I have good tone and decent range (reliably and cleanly up to a "C" above the staff). But, something with the 3C just feels "off" and find myself tiring quickly in the upper register. It almost feels like there is a lack of support to my embouchure. I tried playing on my Schilke 14A4A and I find it even more difficult with the sound becoming more "airy" and more effort required for higher playing.
So this is where I am stuck. I need something like a 3C, but with better embouchure support. A few friends have suggested trying a Bobby Shew lead but I am certainly open to suggestions. |
2 hours a day after a fifteen month layoff and only playing a month, thats alot of playing. the standard rest as much as your playing comes to mind, but if your bent on a new piece try curry precision series. somthing in the 50 or 60 size may work out. But its kind of crazy offering mouthpiece advice so soon into a comeback, but i switched from Bach 1 1/2 C to curry 600 series and have never looked back,
good luck with your already impressive progess!!
tom |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: |
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At just a few months in, I wouldn't expect you to have much endurance in the upper register. Give it time.
That said, I do feel that the modern 3C plays fairly big. almost like a 1.5C which can be tiring for many players. If you want to experiment you could try the Yamaha or Schilke pieces around size 14. The 4 rim I find most Bach 3C-like. C cups should approximate the Bach 3C, or B cups could offer a bit more support upstairs. I'd avoid the A cups and the Shew Lead. These are far too specialized and don't work well for all but a small percentage of players. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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ashenfang Regular Member
Joined: 10 Oct 2018 Posts: 15
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for the responses and great advice. I guess I set high expectations for myself. I don't have a problem with the 3C I am currently playing on.....I just don't want to be "doing something wrong" by continuing to play on it. I will stick with it for now and see how it goes over the next few months. I am fighting that brain/muscle war. The brain is saying, "oh yeah! I remember this, lets do it!" and the muscles are saying, "I think I can, I think I can...." |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that you shouldn’t make a change yet. And if you do when the time comes, don’t mess around with the super shallow stuff like the Shew and the Schilke. Instead, you’d best experiment with Curry mouthpieces.
What will help you now is trying to decrease your effort and pressure when playing high. That’s the most important step! No exercise or mouthpiece will help you go higher or stay higher longer if you’re already using all your effort. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Need some advice on a new mouthpiece |
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ashenfang wrote: | It almost feels like there is a lack of support to my embouchure. |
I don't understand what you mean. You support your embouchure with your own muscularity (which remains constant mouthpiece to mouthpiece). Certain mouthpiece configurations may allow you to employ your existing muscularity more or less efficiently but the mouthpiece itself doesn't "support" the embouchure, at least to my way of thinking.
Maybe you feel you tire too soon on a 3C? The real question is "How does the 3C work before you tire?" If it's working well than maybe your objective should be to build endurance rather than try to find a mouthpiece which you can play longer but maybe not better. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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iiipopes Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2015 Posts: 545
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Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:45 am Post subject: |
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I did the same thing. My '70's 3C with the standard #10 backbore and #27 throat from high school felt "off" after all these years. I persisted, but couldn't get over it. I realized it was my breath support was down after all these decades and needed something to help make what breath support I have more efficient.
I went on a mouthpiece safari, including a Yammy Shew Jazz (essentially a 3C cup and rim with a much tighter backbore). Great mouthpiece, but the backbore was one step too tight, and I had intonation issues as I felt I was "pushing" the mouthpiece. So I bought a custom Bach 3C with the slightly tighter #76 backbore compared to the #10 "standard" backbore. Issues solved: intonation, range, endurance all came back. Not because of any "magic," but because the mouthpiece was a better fit to the breath support I now have to offer compared to when I was a young sprout, just like I now wear a 42reg suit and 37 waist instead of, well, something smaller as I did back then. The slightly tighter #76 backbore, between the #10 and the Shew Jazz, gave just enough resistance that I could manage my breath better without feeling like, on one side, blowing into an open barrel, or the other, pushing too hard to get the breath through the mouthpiece.
Since you seem to still be satisfied with your tone and range, I would look more at a throat and backbore geometry change rather than a change in cup size or rim contour. Throat size and contour, and backbore are two aspects of brass mouthpieces woefully overlooked, since the entire mouthpiece is a system.
I also enlarged the throat, literally just a thou, from the "Standard 27," to what Curry calls the "wobbly 27," and that was the last item that opened everything back up for me after all these decades. It was necessity. When I got my 3C/76, it was obvious a glob of plating was obstructing the throat, so I took the smallest contoured rat-tail file to remove the plating glob and was very careful to keep the throat contour, as a change in throat contour will affect intonation, as I removed the excess plating. The result was the thou larger, to my benefit.
As we grow older, our vital capacity and the ability to deliver breath support change. So look more at the throat and backbore issues, since you seem to still be satisfied with the way a 3C rim and cup still work for you. _________________ King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Need some advice on a new mouthpiece |
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Pretty sure this
Quote: | find myself tiring quickly in the upper register |
Is directly related to this
Quote: | About a month ago I picked the horn back up after a 15 year hiatus |
I don't know what your range and endurance was like when you actively played years ago but if you're back to solid high C's after a month you're doing good.
If the mouthpiece is comfortable you need to work on building strength, maybe even refine your mechanics. I can play F over high C on a Bach 1C and I'm not a high-note beast.
Try experimenting with the horn angle - maybe try raising it a hair or two and see what happens. As you're playing various notes throughout your range try raising the horn until the sound cuts off and then slowly lower until the note speaks again and you get the best sound at a given pitch. Focus on the use of your tongue arch, the general feel of "squeeze" as you go higher.
I have a Yamaha Shew Lead and really like it - in fact it's my favorite at this time but for now I'd recommend staying away from lead pieces until your chops are more conditioned.
Pieces like the Shew and the 14A4A which I also have while not as bad as more extreme "peashooter" mp's aren't going to give you as nice a lower register as that 3C. You should be working on the whole horn not just high notes. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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