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casivake718
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 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:21 am Post subject: Playing on the red |
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| I was reading a forum here of somebody that had a lesson with Roger Ingram, who is my favorite lead trumpet player, and he was saying how Roger always plays on the red part of his lip. I have a somewhat meaty lip so I've always just curled my lips to fit the mouthpiece I use. Should I change this approach? According to Roger, he says that this is what gives him the endurance to play for hour since you can put a bit of pressure on the cushion part of your lip and not sacrifice endurance. I play a lot of music that requires a range above high c, so would this help with my range and my sound? |
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Bloo42
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I've never curled my lips and I've never understood why someone would. You get far more control having your lips directly on the mouthpiece in my experience. It might just be personal preference, but I just can't stand playing with curled lips. I'd say try and play like that, but I've also seen some pretty great players with curled lips. It's probably just how you develop your playing, I don't think it necessarily matters too much if it's what you're used to. |
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BeboppinFool
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| casivake718 wrote: | | I was reading a forum here of somebody that had a lesson with Roger Ingram, who is my favorite lead trumpet player, and he was saying how Roger always plays on the red part of his lip. I have a somewhat meaty lip so I've always just curled my lips to fit the mouthpiece I use. Should I change this approach? According to Roger, he says that this is what gives him the endurance to play for hour since you can put a bit of pressure on the cushion part of your lip and not sacrifice endurance. I play a lot of music that requires a range above high c, so would this help with my range and my sound? |
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I play about halfway down in the red of my upper lip, and when I tried to change that (tried moving my placement higher), I nearly lost everything I had worked so hard to attain. By moving lower than I thought I needed to I got everything back in no time flat, so I know first-hand that there are those who simply can't place as high on their lips as others.
Doc Reinhardt was a big advocate of *not* changing anybody's embouchure, merely finding how to maximize those attributes we were given at birth.
Seriously, if it's not giving you problems, why would you want to change it? For some of us it takes decades to build a solid embouchure that will be able to do all we demand of it. Unfortunately, many who "happened" to find a winning combination that works for them (at a relatively early age) try to push that on everybody and it simply isn't the case.
Another thing to consider is that much of what we "get away with" when we're young fails us as we get older and our reflexes slow down. A young pup with great chops who does many things contrary to what you might do may actually lose those great chops before the age of 30.
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casivake718
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| BeboppinFool wrote: | | casivake718 wrote: | | I was reading a forum here of somebody that had a lesson with Roger Ingram, who is my favorite lead trumpet player, and he was saying how Roger always plays on the red part of his lip. I have a somewhat meaty lip so I've always just curled my lips to fit the mouthpiece I use. Should I change this approach? According to Roger, he says that this is what gives him the endurance to play for hour since you can put a bit of pressure on the cushion part of your lip and not sacrifice endurance. I play a lot of music that requires a range above high c, so would this help with my range and my sound? |
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I play about halfway down in the red of my upper lip, and when I tried to change that (tried moving my placement higher), I nearly lost everything I had worked so hard to attain. By moving lower than I thought I needed to I got everything back in no time flat, so I know first-hand that there are those who simply can't place as high on their lips as others.
Doc Reinhardt was a big advocate of *not* changing anybody's embouchure, merely finding how to maximize those attributes we were given at birth.
Seriously, if it's not giving you problems, why would you want to change it? For some of us it takes decades to build a solid embouchure that will be able to do all we demand of it. Unfortunately, many who "happened" to find a winning combination that works for them (at a relatively early age) try to push that on everybody and it simply isn't the case.
Another thing to consider is that much of what we "get away with" when we're young fails us as we get older and our reflexes slow down. A young pup with great chops who does many things contrary to what you might do may actually lose those great chops before the age of 30. |
I can see what you mean. Right now, I only play trumpet as a hobby with friends, so I don't mind doing a change that could take me months to get used to. I also want to change it because when I curl my lips, my endurance barely lasts with the music I am playing with my friends. I'm playing a lot of salsa/hispanic music right now, which requires range above high E. According to Roger, this embouchure is for players who use shallow/lead mpc, like I do. |
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oxleyk
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| casivake718 wrote: | | he was saying how Roger always plays on the red part of his lip. |
Can you find photos or video that support this claim? |
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casivake718
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oxleyk
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| OK. This appears to be a different definition of "playing on the red." Most players use this term referring to the top lip, which he clearly doesn't do. He simply rolls out the lower lip to form a U-shape. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| casivake718 wrote: | | would this help with my range and my sound? |
There's a lot to what's going on with your embouchure and supporting muscles, mouthpiece, teeth and the interaction between all of them along with the tongue and oral cavity, throat & air.
I'm not sure by what you mean by curling your lips - do you mean sort of sucking them in to make the red meat disappear? I also have somewhat full lips but in the experimenting I've done with that, it doesn't work well - it puts the tissue into a compacted configuration and the tissue doesn't vibrate "right". Yeah, I can play after a fashion but it negatively impacts flexibility and softer attacks don't happen.
On that same topic I took lessons for a while from someone who was an instructor at a music school and he did an extreme lip sucking in thing as part of his setup. He had an expanded high range - well over dub C. His basic sound was decent but there were a couple of problems. He could play high in the practice room but he had no power to speak of - he was the lead player in the faculty jazz band but I'm not sure why - when the band was cranking you couldn't hear him. He was turning beet red, obviously blowing his rear off but he wasn't audible over the band. There was no "sizzle over the section" that a lead player should have and his attacks particularly at lower volume levels were very hit and miss. He played a duet with another instructor at a faculty recital and he fluffed a lot of the entrances where the other instructor who was primarily a symphonic player didn't.
Personally I find the pocket where the mp feels like it's securely anchored on and into the top lip and find the right balance of focus of the muscles toward the mouthpiece - more or less like I'm making an "m" and "p" feel simultaneously and pressure distribution on the top and bottom lips. The spot on the bottom lip feels less defined than on the top lip.
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casivake718
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| Robert P wrote: | | casivake718 wrote: | | would this help with my range and my sound? |
I'm not sure by what you mean by curling your lips - do you mean sort of sucking them in to make the red meat disappear? I also have somewhat full lips but in the experimenting I've done with that, it doesn't work well - it puts the tissue into a compacted configuration and the tissue doesn't vibrate "right". Yeah, I can play after a fashion but it negatively impacts flexibility and softer attacks don't happen.
On that same topic I took lessons for a while from someone who was an instructor at a music school and he did an extreme lip sucking in thing as part of his setup. He had an expanded high range - well over dub C. His basic sound was decent but there were a couple of problems. He could play high in the practice room but he had no power to speak of - he was the lead player in the faculty jazz band but I'm not sure why - when the band was cranking you couldn't hear him. He was turning beet red, obviously blowing his rear off but he wasn't audible over the band. There was no "sizzle over the section" that a lead player should have and his attacks particularly at lower volume levels were very hit and miss. He played a duet with another instructor at a faculty recital and he fluffed a lot of the entrances where the other instructor who was primarily a symphonic player didn't. |
Yes, I curl my lips in to my mouth to make my lips disappear so they can fit into my mpc. The guy you are talking about reminds me of myself. During high school, I would be in my room practicing, playing double g's and what not but when I played lead in the jazz band, in recordings, I barely hear myself play a high d. Kind of discouraged me. I'm a big fan of hearing lead trumpet players sizzle and soaring throughout the big band. Especially when they play notes above high D. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| casivake718 wrote: | | Yes, I curl my lips in to my mouth to make my lips disappear so they can fit into my mpc. The guy you are talking about reminds me of myself. During high school, I would be in my room practicing, playing double g's and what not but when I played lead in the jazz band, in recordings, I barely hear myself play a high d. Kind of discouraged me. I'm a big fan of hearing lead trumpet players sizzle and soaring throughout the big band. Especially when they play notes above high D. |
I feel pretty confident that you're experiencing what I feel when I've tried that and what prevented my former teacher from generating a big sound. The lip tissue is getting trapped/squeezed in a way that prevents the kind of vibrations that will let you play louder. Even at the same pitch, the tissue behaves differently at higher volume levels - but it's being prevented from doing what it needs to do.
I would recommend weaning yourself away from setting up like that.
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LSOfanboy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:31 am Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| Robert P wrote: | | casivake718 wrote: | | Yes, I curl my lips in to my mouth to make my lips disappear so they can fit into my mpc. The guy you are talking about reminds me of myself. During high school, I would be in my room practicing, playing double g's and what not but when I played lead in the jazz band, in recordings, I barely hear myself play a high d. Kind of discouraged me. I'm a big fan of hearing lead trumpet players sizzle and soaring throughout the big band. Especially when they play notes above high D. |
I feel pretty confident that you're experiencing what I feel when I've tried that and what prevented my former teacher from generating a big sound. The lip tissue is getting trapped/squeezed in a way that prevents the kind of vibrations that will let you play louder. Even at the same pitch, the tissue behaves differently at higher volume levels - but it's being prevented from doing what it needs to do.
I would recommend weaning yourself away from setting up like that. |
Personally, I think what you are describing is a lack of resonance, which comes from an imbalance within the system. This cannot be solely attributed to the amount of lip tissue in the cup; I myself and many (far greater) players have either very thin lips or play with a slightly 'thinned' lip set up. Immediately springing to mind are Adam Rapa, Reinhold Friedrich, Philip Cobb, Gabor Tarkovi, Alison Balsom, Caleb Hudson and Doc Severinson (I do accept that you can debate some of those examples a little).
In order to achieve resonance however, all parts of our engaged anatomy must be in balance. If the oral cavity is too large or small, the throat constricted or too open, compression at the wrong level or the lip surface over-tightened then we will not be able to produce the desired level of resonance. Its a far deeper problem than the shape and/or usage of your lip surface.
Hope this adds to the discussion. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:22 am Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| LSOfanboy wrote: | Personally, I think what you are describing is a lack of resonance, which comes from an imbalance within the system. This cannot be solely attributed to the amount of lip tissue in the cup; I myself and many (far greater) players have either very thin lips or play with a slightly 'thinned' lip set up. Immediately springing to mind are Adam Rapa, Reinhold Friedrich, Philip Cobb, Gabor Tarkovi, Alison Balsom, Caleb Hudson and Doc Severinson (I do accept that you can debate some of those examples a little).
Its a far deeper problem than the shape and/or usage of your lip surface |
A failure/obstruction of any of the parts will affect the whole. If the air isn't happening, you won't get a big sound. If your oral cavity isn't right, you won't get a big sound. If there's a problem with the reed, which is what the lip is, then it too will cause a problem no matter what the rest of the system does.
Resonance is definitely an issue - if the lip tissue is made too dense/tight, which I believe is what's happening when you suck in/under the vermilion tissue like that, it limits the resonance that can happen.
In the OP's example and my observations of my former teacher as well as my own experiences with that kind of setup, we see three examples of similar issues.
I believe people with thinner lips tend to have success because the "white" non-vermilion area presents a more comfortable, positive seating place for the mp and the tissue within the mp is more conducive to buzzing.
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LSOfanboy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:22 am Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| Robert P wrote: |
A failure/obstruction of any of the parts will affect the whole. If the air isn't happening, you won't get a big sound. If your oral cavity isn't right, you won't get a big sound. If there's a problem with the reed, which is what the lip is, then it too will cause a problem no matter what the rest of the system does.
Resonance is definitely an issue - if the lip tissue is made too dense/tight, which I believe is what's happening when you suck in/under the vermilion tissue like that, it limits the resonance that can happen.
In the OP's example and my observations of my former teacher as well as my own experiences with that kind of setup, we see three examples of similar issues.
I believe people with thinner lips tend to have success because the "white" non-vermilion area presents a more comfortable, positive seating place for the mp and the tissue within the mp is more conducive to buzzing. |
Before I reply, I should add that I don't particularly advocate either rolling/tucking the lip in or (in more Maggio-esque fashion) pushing it outwards and doing the opposite. I actually think that the surface of the lip should remain as relaxed as possible, whether it is thin or thick is not really important, since resonance is achieved when the vibration of the lips matches the frequency of the trumpet's internal frequencies across the harmonic series. The surface of the lip is a very very small part of this, and unless you are stretching it to a point where it catches on the teeth and it ceases to vibrate, it doesn't require (in my opinion) any further thought.
The premise of your 'examples' is unfortunately flawed. Yes you may have three examples of 'rolled in' players having difficulties, but you cannot prove to anyone else or even your own self that the rest of the system was well in balance for any of those players. There is so much going on that we cannot see, and to make such a superficial judgement (based purely on the tiny part of the system that you can see) is a dangerous game, and many a problem have been caused when teachers approach issues with a 'visual' mindset.
What is more, for your 3 examples I could post 300 examples of (no offence meant) far more notable players who have very thin and/or rolled in lips.
As I say, my argument here is not that one should try to roll in or, indeed, push out the lip surface, but to leave them alone to vibrate as sympathetically as possible whilst we make adjustments to the rest of the system. As long as the lip can maintain an aperture whilst under air pressure, it doesn't need changing. The rest of the system is far far more important.
To give an analogy: its like taking a broken car and fussing pedantically over the bodywork in a vain attempt to get it started. Clearly is the bodywork was so damaged it impinged the free movement of the wheels then it would need adjusting, but beyond that could be left entirely alone. The time should really be spent repairing the engine, gearbox, steering mechanism, brakes and clutch.
Hope this continues to add to the discussion.
All the best |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| LSOfanboy wrote: | | I actually think that the surface of the lip should remain as relaxed as possible |
The tension of the tissue needs to be what it needs to be and be free to be changed with the requirements of a given pitch and volume over a wide range.
| Quote: | | whether it is thin or thick is not really important, since resonance is achieved when the vibration of the lips matches the frequency of the trumpet's internal frequencies across the harmonic series. |
You can play a quiet high C that wouldn't necessarily be particularly resonant but you're achieving the pitch. Or you can play a paint-peeling high C that can be heard over a loud band, unless the tissue is restricted from vibrating in a way to achieve the latter.
| Quote: | | The surface of the lip is a very very small part of this, and unless you are stretching it to a point where it catches on the teeth and it ceases to vibrate, it doesn't require (in my opinion) any further thought. |
The lip tissue is a crucial part - the results are dependent on whether it vibrates the way that's needed. Restriction is the issue. While you can hamper functionality with stretching which is one way to restrict the tissue, I'm suggesting that the problem the OP is running into isn't over-stretching, it's a different kind of manipulation that restricts the tissue. The tissue is 3-dimensional and subtle differences can make a difference.
| Quote: | | The premise of your 'examples' is unfortunately flawed. Yes you may have three examples of 'rolled in' players having difficulties, but you cannot prove to anyone else or even your own self that the rest of the system was well in balance for any of those players. |
When the factor I change is what's being done with the reed and it negatively impacts the results with the other elements being the same, it's a reasonable conclusion that the change in the reed is what's creating the problem.
| Quote: | | There is so much going on that we cannot see, and to make such a superficial judgement (based purely on the tiny part of the system that you can see) is a dangerous game, and many a problem have been caused when teachers approach issues with a 'visual' mindset. |
You generally can't see the reed while it's in the mp without special measures taken. Not a superficial judgement, there's an obvious problem that's not being assessed by appearance but by sound.
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LSOfanboy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| Robert P wrote: | | LSOfanboy wrote: | | I actually think that the surface of the lip should remain as relaxed as possible |
The tension of the tissue needs to be what it needs to be and be free to be changed with the requirements of a given pitch and volume over a wide range.
| Quote: | | whether it is thin or thick is not really important, since resonance is achieved when the vibration of the lips matches the frequency of the trumpet's internal frequencies across the harmonic series. |
You can play a quiet high C that wouldn't necessarily be particularly resonant but you're achieving the pitch. Or you can play a paint-peeling high C that can be heard over a loud band, unless the tissue is restricted from vibrating in a way to achieve the latter.
| Quote: | | The surface of the lip is a very very small part of this, and unless you are stretching it to a point where it catches on the teeth and it ceases to vibrate, it doesn't require (in my opinion) any further thought. |
The lip tissue is a crucial part - the results are dependent on whether it vibrates the way that's needed. Restriction is the issue. While you can hamper functionality with stretching which is one way to restrict the tissue, I'm suggesting that the problem the OP is running into isn't over-stretching, it's a different kind of manipulation that restricts the tissue. The tissue is 3-dimensional and subtle differences can make a difference.
| Quote: | | The premise of your 'examples' is unfortunately flawed. Yes you may have three examples of 'rolled in' players having difficulties, but you cannot prove to anyone else or even your own self that the rest of the system was well in balance for any of those players. |
When the factor I change is what's being done with the reed and it negatively impacts the results with the other elements being the same, it's a reasonable conclusion that the change in the reed is what's creating the problem.
| Quote: | | There is so much going on that we cannot see, and to make such a superficial judgement (based purely on the tiny part of the system that you can see) is a dangerous game, and many a problem have been caused when teachers approach issues with a 'visual' mindset. |
You generally can't see the reed while it's in the mp without special measures taken. Not a superficial judgement, there's an obvious problem that's not being assessed by appearance but by sound. |
To answer your points in turn Robert:
1) We do not need to change the tension in our lips to change frequency. Pitch/frequency changes as the speed of the vibration (which occurs as the aperture opens and shuts many many times a second) increases or decreases. This is controlled by air pressure difference between atmospheric pressure and the raised level of inter-oral air pressure. The vibration is caused as the air pressure tries to neutralise (therefore opening/closing the aperture very rapidly). Tension in the lip is not a necessary part of this; indeed I play with very very little tension in my top lip, right up to a top G or double A. I don't know any brilliant players who have to rely on increasing (for each octave you would have to double) the tension in the lip, it isn't sustainable at all.
2) Are you suggesting that it is impossible to play quietly and resonantly? Resonance refers to the efficiency (and to an extent, purity) of the sound. Not the dynamic.
3) Please refer to the rest of my points as to why you mustn't continue to make the mistake of over-emphasising the importance of the lip tissue.
All the best |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Playing on the red |
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| LSOfanboy wrote: | | 1) We do not need to change the tension in our lips to change frequency. |
This is incorrect.
You not only have to change the tension to play different frequencies you have to change tension to play the same frequency at different volumes.
If what you suggest were correct it would be possible to play a soft low F# and then play a loud high C or double C with no visible change in the embouchure.
I welcome you to post video of yourself performing the above feat.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:09 am Post subject: |
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LSOfanboy wrote:
| Quote: | | In order to achieve resonance however, all parts of our engaged anatomy must be in balance. |
The dominant resonance is in the instrument itself. Any resonance before the aperture is of not only very weak. It is also of no consequence.
| Quote: | | If the oral cavity is too large or small, the throat constricted or too open, compression at the wrong level or the lip surface over-tightened then we will not be able to produce the desired level of resonance. |
The oral cavity does not influence pitch. And one can not change the resonance of the instrument other than by pressing valves in performance. The instrument resonance can be exploited for tone by how the aperture functions. The "body resonance" has little bearing on that if any.
| Quote: | | Its a far deeper problem than the shape and/or usage of your lip surface. |
The state of the aperture is the dominant factor of tone that the player can control. The air pressure is controlled by the player to vary the tone volume. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Pitch/frequency changes as the speed of the vibration (which occurs as the aperture opens and shuts many many times a second) increases or decreases. This is controlled by air pressure difference between atmospheric pressure and the raised level of inter-oral air pressure. |
This is easily shown to be false as one would not be able to play dynamics if the air pressure was the determining factor of pitch.
Also frequency is not "speed of vibration", frequency it is cycles per second. Speed is distance per time.
(For example; the RMS average of a vibrating string's speed changes with amplitude but on a constant frequency.)
LSOfanboy, Please stop trying to put forth your mental visualizations as literal truth. Most simply aren't buying it.
The state of the aperture determines the frequency of pulsation while playing. The air pressure then determines the loudness of tone. This is accepted science. |
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LSOfanboy
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:18 am Post subject: |
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When Darryl gets involved, I bow out. Unfortunately the three of us all appear to have different ideas and seemingly different interpretations of apparently proven science.
Personally I don't have the stomach for arguments that go round and round on this site. I have my career and am both proud and grateful for my achievements and opportunities- as far as I am aware neither Robert nor Darryl have played professionally and so I don't feel that I personally need to argue with either over my views and teaching methods.
To any other students reading this, let this be a lesson on the wide variety of views you will be confronted with. I do believe my understanding to be accurate and proven, but also accept that we all have our own individual experiences and interpretations, so am sympathetic to those who hold their own beliefs and disagree with my understanding. Ultimately you will have to do your own research and form your own opinion, but be slow to follow blindly the words of any of the three of us.
All the best! I'm out! |
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Brad361
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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JUST. my opinion here guys: this kind of extended, back and forth thread/argument won’t accomplish a thing, including answering or helping the OP. It’s all speculation, since no one is actually watching or listening in person to anyone else.
Harmless, this IS a trumpet forum, but I don’t believe any solid conclusions can really be drawn by anyone in these discussions.
Brad
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