Many songs in one key, then same songs in next key
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JetJaguar Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:07 pm Post subject: Ear training question
When learning songs in multiple keys for the purpose of ear training for improvisation, is it better to learn one song in all keys, then the next song in all keys, or to first learn multiple songs in one key, then the same songs in the next key, etc?
Thanks _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:22 pm Post subject:
Definitely learn each song in all 12 keys before going to the next one.
I keep a 12 sided die (D&D style) on my desk for choosing random keys to play tunes in. Very useful and fun! _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 1518 Location: Vancouver, BC
Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:48 pm Post subject:
Thank you Turkle. And I'm adding you to the pantheon of trusted TH contributors. _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:53 am Post subject: Re: Ear training question
jetjaguar wrote:
When learning songs in multiple keys for the purpose of ear training for improvisation, is it better to learn one song in all keys, then the next song in all keys, or to first learn multiple songs in one key, then the same songs in the next key, etc?
Thanks
One song in many keys.
The other way around seems counter productive if the goal is to have ultimate control and be able to play a tune regardless of the key it is in.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:52 am Post subject:
I keep reading on forums "learn one song in all keys". There's no discrediting that POV but I personally find that more theoretical than practical.
In gigs and jam sessions a lot of songs are in only one or two keys (unless there is a singer you work with that just sings in weird keys) vs. one song in a lot of possible keys. I would rather go for a wide repertoire.
If you've got the dedication and time then learning one tune in all keys is great. But I see sometimes on these forums answering a question in terms of what the answer should be rather than what it really is.
(That in no way is meant to challenge how turkle might go about learning a tune, BTW.) _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:13 am Post subject:
Keluhani - I think you have a point if the objective is to learn tunes for jam session repertoire. But since the OP asked specifically about how to learn tunes for ear training, I think that it's much better to take one tune through all keys for that purpose.
My reasoning is like this: say you already know Autumn Leaves in Bb/G-. If you are looking to train your ears and fingers to get comfortable in a gnarly key, like Db/Bb- or something, it's much easier if you already know the general "shape" and structure of the tune. That way your ear will be able to tell which quality of chord is coming - rather than guessing - and you can just concentrate on playing all those hip notes.
More importantly, you won't get "stuck" on one key - who wants to practice everything in one key all week? Instead, as you learn tunes, take them through all 12 keys and gain proficiency in all keys!
For ear training specifically, you're way better off taking a tune you know really well and learning it in every key so you can just comfortably experiment with the notes and alterations, etc. I use Rhythm Changes, Blues, Autumn Leaves, All The Things You Are, and Cherokee most often for getting weird keys back in my fingers if I haven't played them in a while. _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:50 am Post subject:
Turkle, you are totally correct in that method for ear training. The two goals should not be confused. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 29 Apr 2008 Posts: 2450 Location: New York City
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:42 pm Post subject:
Cheers, kehaulani!
I'd also agree with you that practicing tunes you know in strange keys really pays dividends when you work with a guitar player or singer that calls tunes in strange keys.
I had a weekly gig for a while with a singer that seems to call every tune in F#, Db, B, etc. All that time spent working on tunes in those keys is extremely important! There's nothing like botching a solo on "Honeysuckle Rose" in Db in front of God and everybody to remind us why it's important to shed in all keys... _________________ Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:05 pm Post subject:
It was a real eye opener when I started playing in pop/rock bands and the preferred keys were in (for Bb horn) B and F#. No more Bbs LOL. You better have flexibility and a trained ear. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Joined: 03 May 2018 Posts: 74 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:23 pm Post subject:
Great advice turtle, hekaulini. and trumpetfuss!
I use the RandInt function on my TI-83 to determine the keys when practicing scales and arppegios on the piano. Not justfor keys, but also the mode, be it major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, or natural minor.
I should probably do that more with the trumpet and my students if I ever teach... I'm usually fine even in the most difficult keys on trumpet, but I admit I should probably work to truly master the scales to the point where I don't need to rely on my ear, because that sometimes won't cut it for sight-reading hard keys. _________________ Trumpet is for extroverts only... no, wait... Trumpet is also for introverts who need an avenue for extrovertism!
Interesting discussion. There is a piano player who advocates for learning/playing all songs in one key to understand music better. Though I try to play one song in as many keys as possible in order to play it when playing with a keyboard player. Most of whom like to play transposed keys and worse likes sharp keys. Though I'm more comfortable with trombone and new at trumpet playing. Is it really possible to play a song in all the keys. Does this depend on the level of expertise (range consistency) and or does it also involve lowering it say an octave in order to be able to play in line with your range ability.
Joined: 03 Jun 2003 Posts: 1607 Location: Clarksville, Tn
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:44 pm Post subject: Do you read by note name, scale degree, solfege, or other?
When you are learning a tune in different keys do you think notes or scale degrees or solfege or something similar? I work with a sax player who seems to be able to play any song in any key immediately. He says it is because he doesn't think notes. He reads everything as 1(tonic), b5, m3, etc. _________________ Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.
There is a third option, which is actually to learn *everything* in one key first. The point being that it gets your ear into understanding everything within the context of a single major and minor key, which you can then simple port over to any other key later on, as needed.
There's a guy on youtube who proposes this approach and it does make sense to me, although I haven't really tried it myself. It's on the to-do list, but I haven't gotten to it.
Joined: 19 Dec 2013 Posts: 614 Location: Oakville, CT
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Do you read by note name, scale degree, solfege, or othe
mike ansberry wrote:
When you are learning a tune in different keys do you think notes or scale degrees or solfege or something similar? I work with a sax player who seems to be able to play any song in any key immediately. He says it is because he doesn't think notes. He reads everything as 1(tonic), b5, m3, etc.
I take a similar approach. I figure something out in a comfortable key, usually meaning something I can work at for an extended time without straining range, then bring it up a fourth, and that helps me move it to other keys faster. For some reason, I find it easier to transpose the 6 in the IV from the I faster than if I just try to go straight up the scale.
I prefer the wide repertoire because its easy to just memorize the changes of the songs, more than learning the keys. As an earlier writer put it, when you are playing gigs, the songs may change rapidly. I believe that bringing more changes into your practice regimen will help you flow better when it's gig time
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9027 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:12 am Post subject:
Did you read turkle's comment?
"Keluhani - I think you have a point if the objective is to learn tunes for jam session repertoire. But since the OP asked specifically about how to learn tunes for ear training, I think that it's much better to take one tune through all keys for that purpose." _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
For me personally for ear training one key, many tunes.
I always think of melody in term of note position in the scale (1,2,3,5b,...7b), and play any random tunes with one key is usually the best.
For example: Mary has a little lamb: 3 2 1 2 3 3 3, 2 2 2, 3 5 5
When you can play most major and minor tunes without problems in common keys, you can move on to other keys (which you have mastered). It is more about figuring out Key + position = Notes (e.g. B + 5 = F#) and fingering.
There is an phone app called Functional ear trainer helped me tremendously (you should try out definitely)
Disclaimer: I began ear training when playing guitar, so transposing is trivial. _________________ Oink, oink.
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