Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: Should I get a new mouthpiece?
So I’m a junior and I play on a bach 7C and on a bach “starters” trumpet. I often get made fun of by friends saying that I don’t play a good enough mouth piece or a good enough horn, yet I don’t feel much like it effects my playing ability at all. If this mouthpiece and horn are working perfectly fine for me, should I bother getting a different size/new trumpet, or should I wait til college, or does it even honestly matter at all?
Mouthpieces are like shoes, personal to everyone but won't make you run any faster. You should look for which mouthpiece makes it easiest to play the sound you want. Many start with a Bach 7C but it is by no means a "beginner's" mouthpiece. In fact, some find it difficult to play. A good place to start is a Bach or Curry 7C, 5C, 3C. Bach and Curry C-cup mouthpieces, particularly the 7, 5, 3, and even 1.5 sizes, are about as close to standard as mouthpieces get. There's a LOT of different stuff out there, hence the common experience of a "safari". However, don't just change your mouthpiece unless you have a reason. It seems like you don't need to as of now.
Based on what you've said, I would say getting a better horn might be more important. Horns of lesser quality make everything that much more difficult. Some standard professional level horns to check out include the Bach Stradivarius ML 37 (usually in silver but that's another preference thing), Yamaha 8335II Xeno, B&S Challenger I 3137, Shires A, Schilke B1. Unless you're dead set on one particular style, it's best to get an "all-round" horn.
Simply put, those making fun of you are revealing their own ignorance. Before making any equipment decisions, it's best to have a teacher there to help or at the very least someone to offer immediate feedback, have a wide variety to try, and multiple instances of models you're interested in. _________________ 1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
2003 C Bach Stradivarius 239/25A L silver - Stork Vacchiano 4C25C
2006 Bb/A Schilke Piccolo P5-4 silver - Reeves A adaptor - Stork SM SP6
Akai MPC Live II
Roland JD-Xi
Casio MT-68
Last edited by O00Joe on Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 22 Feb 2010 Posts: 200 Location: Houston, TX
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject:
If you do not feel any restraint on the piece, I would say no. Peer pressure is not a good reason for changing mouthpieces. The story goes round and round that Bud Herseth (the symphonic and solo trumpet most classical players revered and looked up to played a 7C for a long time). Now if you think you might benefit musically, find a good local trumpet teacher and be guided in trying out other sizes. As for the being tease about playing a 7C, practice, out play them if you don't already, and shut them up that way.
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:58 pm Post subject:
Be careful how you give power to your "friends" by letting yourself be manipulated by their teasing. Best bet is work on your playing and ignore them. They can say whatever they want, but they cannot wear your lips or inhabit your brain. They only tease you because it works. YOU CONTROL THAT. _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.
If you do not feel any restraint on the piece, I would say no. Peer pressure is not a good reason for changing mouthpieces. The story goes round and round that Bud Herseth (the symphonic and solo trumpet most classical players revered and looked up to played a 7C for a long time). Now if you think you might benefit musically, find a good local trumpet teacher and be guided in trying out other sizes. As for the being tease about playing a 7C, practice, out play them if you don't already, and shut them up that way.
The story I hear was that Herseth played a 7C type piece until his face got busted up in a car accident. He went to a larger ID to work around the scar tissue. The great studio players, George Graham and Warren Leuning played on 7C pieces. If it's comfortable and works for you don't change.
So, Michael Jordan wears a size 15 shoe (or whatever) do you wear a size 15 shoe just because he does? NO, you wear what fits you. Go read the forum on Allen Vizzutti's website. He tells a similiar story about feeling pressure to play a toilet bowl mouthpiece. YOU play what fits YOUR physiology period.
I play a 10.5C size legit piece and couldn't care less what anyone has to say about it. I started on a 7C (tried a 3C0 and went down in size instead of up as recommended by Vizzutti. You play the inner diameter that fits your chops. A beginner trumpet is just fine until you are ready and sure as to what professional model you want. The tone and sound quality is what matters ... NOT, the size or brand name. _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Nicholson Monette Prana Resonance LT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece
And yet... those whose career depend on getting a certain quality of trumpet sound gravitate to the large diameters. But we know best right?
I can't generalize to you guys but there's a broadness of sound that comes from a wide diameter piece that I can't replicate on smaller diameters regardless of depth. It's a different - and pleasing - sound.
I read here somewhere that that broad sound hits you from all sides whereas the small sound has a definite focal point. Up to you what you want to hear when you practice
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 724 Location: California
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:24 am Post subject:
Do you plan to get a degree in trumpet performance and play professionally?
If so, my best recommendation is to find a private teacher who has successfully prepared a number of students who have been accepted into serious programs and have gone on to be successful in the type of music you are interested in. Do exactly what that teacher recommends.
If you think you might continue to play after high school but you plan on a career in a different field, then play whatever equipment you are the most comfortable with. Don’t forget to have fun playing.
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:07 pm Post subject:
epoustoufle wrote:
And yet... those whose career depend on getting a certain quality of trumpet sound gravitate to the large diameters. But we know best right?
I can't generalize to you guys but there's a broadness of sound that comes from a wide diameter piece that I can't replicate on smaller diameters regardless of depth. It's a different - and pleasing - sound.
I read here somewhere that that broad sound hits you from all sides whereas the small sound has a definite focal point. Up to you what you want to hear when you practice
I went through a time of significant upsizing chasing the broadness of sound you mention. It's very seductive. And I suppose I wouldn't discourage others from doing the same if they're so inclined. That said, I have a deeper appreciation that everything is a compromise. If too zealous or dogmatic then one could fly way past the point of diminishing returns. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:55 am Post subject:
I agree with Russell and Cheiden.
The ID has nothing to do per se in sound. It's individual, it's in combination with a person, it has to fit you, your chops, teeth etc.
Then, for sound or style, change cup depths, throat size, backbore.
My ID is between let's say a Bach 10 3/4 and 10 1/2. When i play my "classical" mpc, you'd just think i'm playing a 1 1/2C, and no such a smaaaaaall ID.
Joined: 12 Nov 2002 Posts: 960 Location: St. Louis
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:06 am Post subject:
Bud Herseth played a 7C till an accident FORCED him to a bigger mouthpiece. In his case a 1 1/4 C _________________ Student of the Trumpet!
It's not about us....It's about God!
When I was in high school, the lead trumpet in our top jazz band (as well as first chair in marching and symphonic band) played on a Bach TR300 student trumpet using the 7C that came with the horn and could play circles around the other trumpet players - many who had Bach Strads or Yamaha Xenos.
If you’re comfortable and happy with your mouthpiece and horn, then don’t change what’s working well for you. _________________ XO 1604 S-R Bb Tpt
Bach Strad 37 Bb Tpt
XO 1624S C Tpt
If you do not feel any restraint on the piece, I would say no. Peer pressure is not a good reason for changing mouthpieces. The story goes round and round that Bud Herseth (the symphonic and solo trumpet most classical players revered and looked up to played a 7C for a long time). Now if you think you might benefit musically, find a good local trumpet teacher and be guided in trying out other sizes. As for the being tease about playing a 7C, practice, out play them if you don't already, and shut them up that way.
The story I hear was that Herseth played a 7C type piece until his face got busted up in a car accident. He went to a larger ID to work around the scar tissue. The great studio players, George Graham and Warren Leuning played on 7C pieces. If it's comfortable and works for you don't change.
Check out John Hagstrom, 2nd trumpet with the Chicago Symphony. His signature Yamaha mouthpiece is somewhere in the neighborhood of a 5B bach and he fits right into the section.
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:45 am Post subject:
There's a thing I do when I give brass clinics. When discussing equipment, especially if I'm at a High School, I'll ask the audience, "Hey, who here as the worst horn?" There'll be some nervous giggles and then pretty soon someone volunteers a rustbucket of an old dinged up horn. Then I'll say, "Who here has the cheapest, worst mouthpiece?" And soon, some generic, dull 7C or 3C clone will be produced. I then insert said mouthpiece into said rustbucket and peel paint with them. I'll do an impressive shout chorus from The Producers or Cats and then I'll launch into my own cadenza for the first movement of the Haydn Concerto. Then I say to my audience, "Now the next time you read some ad talking about how easy high notes are on some particular mouthpiece, or how bright and powerful some particular new trumpet plays, remember this."
Sure, as we progress we all want to get the best mouthpiece and horn for our individual ability and playing style as is possible. But equipment is really just like a fine-tuning knob on an old TV or Radio. It's not the main thing at all. The player is.
To the OP: Stick with that 7C mouthpiece - it's a fine mouthpiece. Practice hard, keep at it and make your colleagues envy you. Maybe some day you'll see them playing on newly purchased 7C mouthpieces and a student Bach trumpet like yours.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:52 am Post subject:
LFRoberts5 wrote:
Bud Herseth played a 7C till an accident FORCED him to a bigger mouthpiece. In his case a 1 1/4 C
I wouldn't say it forced him to a bigger mouthpiece - I think he could have continued his career on the 7-sized rim (he did continue using Bach 7D and 7E mouthpieces for piccolo trumpet for the rest of his career). But yes, the reason he went to bigger mouthpieces was due to the scar tissue on his lip from a car accident. And the rest as they say, is history. He didn't move to a 1-1/4C though.
Bud played on 7Cs and 7Bs before his accident but preferred the 7B. After the accident he moved to the Bach 1 sized mouthpiece with underparts of various depths he used depending on how bright or dark he wanted to sound. He usually played with the 1B underpart - he preferred its slightly V shaped cup. His rim was a rather unique 1C rim (Scott Laskey told me its contour was a bit different than the typical 1C rim).
While an accident caused him to move to the bigger mouthpieces, I think those bigger mouthpieces were in part responsible for the sound he created and established as the sound of orchestral trumpet playing for the rest of the 20th century and beyond.
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9013 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:23 pm Post subject:
Can you imagine playing so well and confidently that you would audition a different mouthpiece on Bruckner with Karl Boehm? Gad! _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
^^ Show your "friends" this video. At 8 seconds, it is a 7C you're hearing ^^ _________________ 1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:23 pm Post subject: New Mouthpiece?
Thankyou John Mohan for the "from the horses mouth" on Bud's mouthpieces.
Below is Jens Lindeman's famous "Mouthpiece Rant:"
Jens Lindemann’s Mouthpiece Rant
I have received many e-mails from TPIN members who were at the ITG conference asking the classic "what-mouthpiece-do-you-use" question. I thought I would take this opportunity to give you my personal theory on mouthpieces.
I believe that far too many trumpet players use mouthpieces that are basically too big. IMHO, going larger than a Bach 3C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 14c4 or smaller than a Bach 7C or Yamaha/Schilke 11 should be considered 'specialized' equipment.
We seem to have no shortage of trumpet players out there who would say that very small mouthpieces are considered 'cheaters'. Have you ever seen a Bill Chase mouthpiece? It is about as small as you can possibly get and it served him very well for the type of playing he did. Could he have done that on a larger mouthpiece? Of course, but specialized lead players are artists in their own right. Those who do it for a living are very cognizant of what they are hired to do in the most efficient manner possible so that they can continue to do it for as long possible!
True lead players are also extremely rare. Think about how many people in your own community would be considered monster lead players...specifically the so-called 'screech' players. You would probably come up with a relatively small number in any given city. I can also virtually guarantee you that those inviduals play on more 'specialized' equipment that probably falls out of a standard industry medium. In my opinion, you should only mess around with their type of equipment if you were interested in the type of air velocity that they themselves use for their specific job. Remember though that everything comes with a price. Extremely small, shallow mouthpieces simply do not resonate that well in a section. They may have good 'cutting' projection but try playing softly with a good attack...very risky. Of course, if you never have to play softly with a good sound then you should consider yourself a true specialist...go for it!
By the same token, the great orchestral players use equipment that would hover around a Bach 1 1/2 or 1C or the Yamaha/Schilke equivalent 16-18C4. These individuals should also be considered 'specialists' because they are. Playing in an orchestra requires the ability to blend first and foremost and occasionally lead the entire brass section. But even then, the best players are simply riding on top of overtones being laid down by the rest of the section. They are not trying to 'cut' through in the way that commercial trumpet players might want to sizzle over a big band or rock group.
I just finished playing with the Summit Brass this week. Allen Vizzutti, Allan Dean and David Hickman were also in the trumpet section. Playing with them was AMAZINGLY easy because everyone blended and played in tune and everyone occasionally had the opportunity to lead the section and lay down a style that the others would follow. When the section is in tune and balanced, it is very simple to play for long periods of time without feeling true fatigue.
It is my understanding that the great Bud Herseth began his career on something like a Bach 7C and only switched to a larger mouthpiece (Bach 1X...made for him) after his car accident so that there was greater sensation in his nerve-damaged lips. Obviously, Bud Herseth is one of the greatest orchestral players ever but his own switch to a large mouthpiece (largest ever at the time) was based on an extreme situation for a highly specialized job. However, since most classical players wanted to sound like him, many made the same switch without thinking of the potential ramifications. Specifically, working too hard to find the sweet spot...more on that later. Bud Herseth is one the most efficient players of all time and he was efficient on a Bach 7C for a long period.
Thus, the point of my ramble (I think I'm jet-lagged). EFFICIENCY!!! After starting on a Bach 7C like many of you out there, I graduated to bigger equipment...all the way to a Bach 1 1/4, 24 throat, Schmidt backbore. I love stats...it clears the room of everyone except trumpet players.
So, now that we are alone, I can tell you about my realization. Unless I wanted to be Bill Chase, there was little point in playing through a pin hole. By the same token, it also seemed reasonably logical that unless I was recovering from nerve damage and needed to feel more of my lips so that I could play for Fritz Reiner in Chicago, I probably wouldn't need a 1X either.
Allen Vizzutti and I have discussed this often over the years and the simple fact is this, in order to play efficently you must be in the sweet spot of a mouthpiece. A large mouthpiece has a bigger sweet spot and, as with oversized tennis racquets and golf clubs, it helps compensate for our very human ability to miss the centre of the note more often than not. To accomplish the same goal on a smaller mouthpiece you MUST be more efficient or it will back up on you. I describe backing up as basically trying to overpower the sweet spot.
Currently, I am playing a GR mouthpiece which Gary Radtke made especially for me. This will be available very soon (complete with my website on it...the benefits of customization!). For years before that, my own equipment was made for me by a mouthpiece maker in Japan who worked for Yamaha. I don't know the exact dimensions but they are somewhere between a Bach 5-7 C or a Yamaha/Schilke 11. Never measured the throat or the backbore and I didn't really care because it basically got me to where I needed to be. I could pretty much do everything I needed to do in any register I needed to play in with that mouthpiece. Could it have been a more perfect mouthpiece? Of course! Will I obsess about trying to find an elusive solution? Of course not! The answer is fluid anyway due to the fact that my body, lips, dental structure, and vital capacity will always be changing naturally due to the aging process that everyone of us is undergoing as I write this. Now, if your thing happens to be the quest for the perfect mouthpiece, then at least be honest with yourself, it is the chase that you are into and not the solution.
The bottom line is this (again, IMHO) the name of the game is efficiency and flexibility and the best solution for an all-around game is middle of the road equipment coupled with focused, intelligent practise. Have fun experimenting but don't let it be the answer to your problems!
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