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Need to improve range for Solo and ensemble


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malden
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan

Xray photographic tests have been done with trumpet players as well, in this case with Bud Brisbois. The results are documented below:

"In 1967 Lewis Hiigel used cinefluorographic sound pictures to determine the relationships between the action of the tongue in performing various pitches and styles on a brass instrument and the tongue action in enunciating selected syllables.

The trumpet player Bud Brisbois was filmed for this study.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llcoJ7zs5dI&list=UUUdsIk-nkhT2KRiv0CC-5MA&index=5

The following statements illustrate the most significant results of Hiigel's research:

1. Significant differences exist between the tongue placement for legato and staccato with the exception of the contact placement of the posterior arch. . . .
2. Significant differences exist between the tongue placement for performance of the various pitches and styles and placement for the enunciation of the syllables as they were matched to the pitches. . . .
3. Significant differences exist between the tongue placement for the various registers with the exception of the contact tip placement. . . .
4. Significant differences exist between the tongue placement of the respective subjects in all the measurement dimensions. . . .
5. No evidence was found to support the postulate that thinking a syllable during performance will tend to simulate the tongue position resulting from the enunciation of that syllable. . . .
6. The directional tendencies of tongue placement for both performance and syllabic recitation are similar. . . .
7. No patterns of register change were apparent. . . .

According to Hiigel, the implications of his research for brass pedagogy are the following: (1) the use of syllables to indicate correct tongue placement
should be avoided, and (2) a more consistent tongue placement for the entire range of the instrument should be taught. The research findings of Hiigel and others, such as Hall, have indicated that the utilization of vowel
syllables, as advocated by many brass authorities, as an aid in register change may be a misnomer. In addition, such research projects have indicated that a more consistent tongue placement for the entire range of the instrument
should be maintained. In view of these findings, it would seem to follow that instead of placing the emphasis on the mechanical and physical, perhaps the emphasis should be directed to the sound and musical expressiveness being
produced. In other words, instead of concentration on tongue manipulation, the attention should be directed to the quality of sound and striving for a more musical and expressive performance.
"

From : "The Application of Bel Canto Concepts and Principles to Trumpet Pedagogy and Performance" by Malcolm Eugene Beauchamp

I have never been able to think Tee or Tah or the like and vary the pitch. But I have been able to modulate the pitch by hearing the note in my imagination and then letting things happen all by themselves as indicated in the above study. What I have discovered is that using this technique I am playing in the high register more easily. And I also discovered that my tongue is arching when I do it. Yes, it arches. But the arch is the result of something else going on. I could not play a note thinking of arching my tongue.

And now I think I understand why Maurice Andre did not realize or believe his tongue arched when he played. Because he clearly never tried to arch the tongue to play a note! It happened all by itself as the "result" of some other action, technique or teaching...

I think there are many ways to skin a cat in trumpet playing.

Your thoughts?

BTW, the amazing Bud Brisbois in action in 1965, two years before the testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15A7M5iDQgo
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi malden,

I wish people would include their real names! It feels weird addressing you as "malden". At the risk of offending (or more likely amusing) mm55 (another person of mystery), I most certainly do want to and will reply to you - it would be remiss of me not to, as you clearly put time and effort into your post.

I just watched the research video you cited (I'll watch the fun video you posted tomorrow when I can listen to it at full volume). In the X-Ray video, Bud's tongue can be clearly seen arching up as he plays higher and flattening down as he plays lower. The text description on the YouTube page reads:

Quote:
This video was taken in the 1960's as part of Dr. Lew Hiigel's Doctoral dissertation. It is a unique x-ray view of Bud Brisbois , Paul Tanner , the sitting Principal of the L.A. Philharmonic Horn section and a student . This incredible video reveals correct tongue level and dispels the flat tongue position theory forever! Made at UCLA Medical.


I am perplexed at how anyone seeing and studying this footage could come to the conclusion that one should ignore how the tongue moves into different positions throughout the range of the instrument. Personally, I was stuck on a High C from age 9 to age 16 until I learned the role of tongue arch and air power, and then by using that information in my practicing, I was able to hit an Eb above High C on my 18th birthday (and more importantly, I eventually developed the range, power, tone and technique required to make a living as a trumpet player).

That said, I can completely understand the idea that it would be a bad idea to try to assign a particular syllable to a particular note. The movements and positions the tongue takes are infinite, depending on the range, volume, type of articulation and tone quality of any particular note. Trying to arbitrarily assign a syllable to particular notes, or even notes in a particular range and consciously force the tongue to adopt said exact position cannot work. We need to practice and pay attention to what our lips, tongue and air are doing as we play in various ranges. With my own students I often tell them to use extrapolation to find the feel of the upper register. As one slurs up through the harmonic series, one can pay attention to what they are doing as they go up to learn to reach even higher notes by extrapolating upon what they are doing as they ascend through the notes in the range they are currently able to play.

As my teacher Claude Gordon often said and wrote, while the exact position of the tongue cannot be described, the general way the tongue moves through the lower and upper ranges can be described (more "aw" for lower notes and more "eee" for higher notes) and with proper practice and development, the exact way the tongue needs to move and the exact position it needs to be in for any particular note can be felt by the individual and with enough practice to make it work by habit.

I don't mean to sound like I am bragging, but here, right now, at 1:30 AM if you were here you could tell me to play any note between a Double Pedal C and a G above High C (just a G because I am retired and out of shape) and I promise you, I could pull my horn out of the case, put the mouthpiece in the horn and play the note. I don't have perfect pitch and I cannot guarantee that I could sing or hum the note. But I know the feel (in terms of air power required, tongue arch position and embouchure position) of the note just as assuredly as if I had a piano in this room and I could just take my finger and play a particular note on that piano. And then my wife would come storming out of our bedroom and kill both of us. Slowly.

I'd like to put a LOL emoticon after the above two most recent sentences. But it is a serious sentence.

Oh okay...

But it is still a serious, true sentence. (Or at least, likely is). Either way, I have no intention of finding out. Good night!

Best wishes,

John
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mm55
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
At the risk of offending (or more likely amusing) mm55
Oh dear. No, I'm not offended. Yes, amused at how "one and done" so predictably became three more. Almost like a bad sit-com.
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malden
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HI John

I will just speak for myself, but I imagine I speak for many who are trying to figure brass playing out, when I say “thanks” for your many posts clarifying CG’s teachings.

If you reread the actual findings from the tests back in 1967, and ignore the commentary made on youtube, you will see that the action of the tongue and its arching movement was not questioned. It happens in clear view. What test results question is the pedagogical value of using vowel syllables as a tool to elicit this tongue action. In the test, they asked Brisbois to think “Tee” and other classic vowel sounds and noted the action of his tongue. His tongue did not function in the same way as when he just played notes. So they questioned the value of Tee, Tah, Too, Di ,Dah etc. as opposed to just hearing the note in the imagination and playing it (like a singer or William Adams student might do.)

Now any student who plays Clarke, CG or Irons, just to name a few, get’s instructions in classic vowels syllables . Those are three pretty serious teachers. But following along in the books, I came to the point where I was called on to play even modest high notes and I could have swallowed Tee, Tea, Tah and my tongue for all the help it gave me. If anything, trying to arch my tongue shut the sound off completely. But my teacher assured me I was very close to getting the feel of it and he was right.

In my case, I got the tongue action to work by focusing on the sound I wanted to produce. Flipping this little switch has meant a huge improvement. When I read the essay on the use of “Bel Canto” singing technique to teach the trumpet, a few other lights switched on, because it describes my own experience and I hope it helps some other student who may be reading this post.

I agree with CG, the whole point of practice and experimentation (as opposed to blind obedience to a Dogma) is to trigger these illuminations that allow us to improve. That is how we learn anything.

And I come back to the case of Maurice Andre who did not realize or believe his tongue arched when he played. He was surprised when he saw the MRI of his tongue when he played. So Maurice Andre, one of the greatest players of the century, clearly never tried to arch the tongue to play a note! It happened all by itself as the "result" of some other action, technique or teaching. And that fact supports the findings of those who studied Bud Brisbois’s playing in 1967.

Oh and John, you’re not alone in risking bodily harm by waking a sleeping princess!

Cheers!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

malden wrote:
HI John

I will just speak for myself, but I imagine I speak for many who are trying to figure brass playing out, when I say “thanks” for your many posts clarifying CG’s teachings.

If you reread the actual findings from the tests back in 1967, and ignore the commentary made on youtube, you will see that the action of the tongue and its arching movement was not questioned. It happens in clear view. What test results question is the pedagogical value of using vowel syllables as a tool to elicit this tongue action. In the test, they asked Brisbois to think “Tee” and other classic vowel sounds and noted the action of his tongue. His tongue did not function in the same way as when he just played notes. So they questioned the value of Tee, Tah, Too, Di ,Dah etc. as opposed to just hearing the note in the imagination and playing it (like a singer or William Adams student might do.)

Now any student who plays Clarke, CG or Irons, just to name a few, get’s instructions in classic vowels syllables . Those are three pretty serious teachers. But following along in the books, I came to the point where I was called on to play even modest high notes and I could have swallowed Tee, Tea, Tah and my tongue for all the help it gave me. If anything, trying to arch my tongue shut the sound off completely. But my teacher assured me I was very close to getting the feel of it and he was right.

In my case, I got the tongue action to work by focusing on the sound I wanted to produce. Flipping this little switch has meant a huge improvement. When I read the essay on the use of “Bel Canto” singing technique to teach the trumpet, a few other lights switched on, because it describes my own experience and I hope it helps some other student who may be reading this post.

I agree with CG, the whole point of practice and experimentation (as opposed to blind obedience to a Dogma) is to trigger these illuminations that allow us to improve. That is how we learn anything.

And I come back to the case of Maurice Andre who did not realize or believe his tongue arched when he played. He was surprised when he saw the MRI of his tongue when he played. So Maurice Andre, one of the greatest players of the century, clearly never tried to arch the tongue to play a note! It happened all by itself as the "result" of some other action, technique or teaching. And that fact supports the findings of those who studied Bud Brisbois’s playing in 1967.

Oh and John, you’re not alone in risking bodily harm by waking a sleeping princess!

Cheers!


I don't disagree with you at all. For some, just thinking about the higher notes they want to be able to play and practicing every day will eventually get them there. But I remember how frustrating it was to me when people suggested I needed to "hear the notes" in my mind in order to find and play them on the horn. I could hear the notes just fine - and I did so not just in my mind, but every time I attended a Maynard concert. But to no avail. For me, learning the way the tongue needs to arch and applying that knowledge worked wonders. But for you and others, that apparently was not helpful. But I think it is helpful for most to know the mechanics involved - if they practice. One could explain everything there is to know - every nuance - about how to ride a bicycle to a kid who's never ridden one. With only that information, the kid is still going to skin his knees at first.

Concerning Bud Brisbois, he already had the feel or knack of it down, and didn't need to think about his tongue at all. For someone like him, trying to consciously manipulate the tongue arch would and did create the exact results that you describe - it caused him trouble.

Concerning Maurice Andre, as I have written in the past, it can be helpful to know the general way the air, tongue and lips work, but it is certainly not a prerequisite. Maurice became one of the greatest trumpet players of all time, thinking (incorrectly) that he kept his tongue flat in his mouth at all times in order to produce his big, beautiful, open sound.

Quick edit: Personally, the approach I took was basically a combination of thinking "eee" as I played up higher, noticing the way my tongue moved AND what you would call the Bel Canto approach (listening to the results and always trying to make things sound as smooth and clear as possible). This is how Claude taught his students to do it. Over time as I improved and the knack of tongue movement become automatic, I now really only concentrate on the sound and let my body "find the way".

Cheers,

John


Last edited by John Mohan on Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:
John Mohan wrote:
At the risk of offending (or more likely amusing) mm55
Oh dear. No, I'm not offended. Yes, amused at how "one and done" so predictably became three more. Almost like a bad sit-com.


I really would have been surprised if you'd been offended. Glad to be amusing you!

I think I just hit my fifth post now. Maybe it's time for a fifth of something...

But seriously, I still have not, and won't be a part of this becoming a goofy debate (I'm right - no I am - no I am) type of thread.

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deleted_user_02066fd
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering if anyone has access to an actual video of Bud Brisbois playing. I've heard countless recordings of Bud but have never have seen any footage of him playing.
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Need to improve range for Solo and ensemble Reply with quote

spencerkotulski wrote:
I just got my solo and ensemble solo ...this is still difficult to play without applying way too much pressure. Any tips on how to help this?

Practice the solo in short segments (play a little, rest a little...) every day so it becomes very familiar. Also work on scales, lip slurs and arpeggio drills to improve strength and accuracy. Have fun with it. Good luck!
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello all,
one more time, as i was sure at the beginning of this thread, we all posted, and sometimes opened the sempiternal debates, just for us and between us, while the OP, like predictable, disappeared (looking for his 5 posts ? )

Bobby Shew always tells there are facts and opinions.
I will add that sometimes the various thoughts or schools are more adapted to some physiologies or morphologies; also this can change with time, age, experience, shape, etc.
It's very important to analyse things, to search, to have opinions.
But we must also at the same level let the body express its intelligence.
For some thinking AAH EEH will help, for others this will thin their sound.
Personnally, 2 years ago, while practicing Clarke exercices up to high B, i could not play accurately staccato, single, double, triple tonguing. I persevered for weeks, til one day my body showed me the way with the KTM. A technic i tried for curiosity many years ago, without success at all.
I asked advices to John Mohan and the late Macgovnor (hope he's jamming and gigging with some Giants up there ), and they 'd been very helpful to beginning mastering this technic.

Same for the sprint : you can't tell some athlete to run with the longer steps, or with the higher gestual frequence. It depends on the individual characteristics; but it's better to developp both qualities.

Facts vs opinions. And let's try not to be dogmatic.

Best
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mohan wrote:
Quote:
I know he means well, but I find it very sad that Kalijah is still infecting young, struggling players with his misunderstandings of the mechanics of brass playing.

Air pressure variances determine both loudness and pitch. We blow stronger to play louder and we blow stronger to play higher. Whether our blowing harder causes us to play higher, or louder, or both is determined by what we do with our tongue arch and what we do with our embouchures (lip formation, lip muscles and face muscles)


John is arguing a point that I did not make. It is the straw-man, yet again.

I never implied that there were not pressure variances when playing in various tonal and dynamic range.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Mohan wrote:
Quote:
I know he means well, but I find it very sad that Kalijah is still infecting young, struggling players with his misunderstandings of the mechanics of brass playing.

Air pressure variances determine both loudness and pitch. We blow stronger to play louder and we blow stronger to play higher. Whether our blowing harder causes us to play higher, or louder, or both is determined by what we do with our tongue arch and what we do with our embouchures (lip formation, lip muscles and face muscles)


John is arguing a point that I did not make. It is the straw-man, yet again.

I never implied that there were not pressure variances when playing in various tonal and dynamic range.


I'm sorry Darryl,

Apparently I misunderstood what you meant when you wrote:

kalijah wrote:
The air pressure does not determine the pitch.


Perhaps you meant that the air pressure alone does not determine pitch. In that case, yes, of course.

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year (not just the holiday, but the whole year)!

Just noticed that you play a Burbank Benge and a Yamaha 631 Flügelhorn. Holy cow! Maybe we're long lost twins!

Best wishes,

John
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject: It seems to me I have heard that song before... it’s fro Reply with quote

Seriously this about the hundredth time I’ve read almost the same thing regarding variations on the original question. No one will ever agree on anything but the method that is working for them. The only good advice on this over the net is get a good teacher. I personally think everyone finds their own way and the help they need only with a great deal of persistence. The OP just wants a hi c or so so any proficient teacher should be able to help. Just ask around, or mention where you are from and you will probably get a lot of suggestions and since most of us play trumpet you may get a good one😜

Out of tongue arch, more air, upstream, downstream, etc. ad finitum the only sure thing is we’re all going to do it our own way and very few hit dbl. c without some help along the line, and some (read me/most everyone) can’t do it with expert help yet.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: It seems to me I have heard that song before... it’s Reply with quote

Rod Haney wrote:
Seriously this about the hundredth time I’ve read almost the same thing regarding variations on the original question. No one will ever agree on anything but the method that is working for them. The only good advice on this over the net is get a good teacher. I personally think everyone finds their own way and the help they need only with a great deal of persistence. The OP just wants a hi c or so so any proficient teacher should be able to help. Just ask around, or mention where you are from and you will probably get a lot of suggestions and since most of us play trumpet you may get a good one😜

Out of tongue arch, more air, upstream, downstream, etc. ad finitum the only sure thing is we’re all going to do it our own way and very few hit dbl. c without some help along the line, and some (read me/most everyone) can’t do it with expert help yet.


And, as someone mentioned,the OP seems to have disappeared from the discussion.
I think at least in part because we have become a society that seems to require the internet for it’s very survival (please note sarcasm), especially kids today sometimes believe that everything can be answered via a search engine or on line forum. If (IF!!) the OP really wants to improve, as Rod said, he needs to find a teacher and PRACTICE. A LOT. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the OP asking his questions here, but hopefully he understands there are no shortcuts to becoming a better player.

Brad
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
High loud notes: Blow strong, arch tongue into eee (as in when saying "sea") position and tighten face/ lip muscles enough to maintain the embouchure against the stronger stream of air.

To interject an observation on this - "eee" per se doesn't work for me, for me it's more of a feel of going from an uhh to an aah - not as in "say ah" like a doctor would tell you (which would make things more open) but like the a sound in "back".
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Dark Knight
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the posts were a very interesting read and parallel the relationship between biomechanists, elite/highest level athletes and coaching.

Often, elite/highest level performers have no clue how they accomplish their specific skill. They just focus on the task and the body does what it needs to do. The biomechanist comes in with high speed filming and mechanical engineering knowlege to describe the elite performance. Coaches then develop a pedagogical approach on how to take athletes from lower levels of performance to higher levels. That is a talent all by itself and it is a rare and wonderful thing when the elite performer also a coach or teacher. It takes very specific training to know how to break skills down so that people can understand what they need to do. These things are taught in physical education as part of a four year degree.

This leads to the syllable system. The scientist will look a the films and see changes in tongue position and describe exactly as they see it, ee, ah, or any variant in between. But, that does not mean the player is actually thinking that. It is something they do automatically and have come to through practice. Some get there very quickly, and some players take a much longer time. There is a a physically gifted component when it comes to time lines but everyone can get there eventually.

So, now the teacher uses these syllables to help players get there more quickly, exactly like the coach will use target biomechanical characteristics to help amature athelets to a higher level more quickly. Way better than trial and error.

The "ah ha" moments when someone does start getting into the upper register and they do notice that their tongue is in an "ee" position. It is a hard to think of these syllables while playing but if you have a good teacher, they will prescribe a series or progression of exercises that do build strength, air, and tongue coordination to help you to achieve it and then the student goes ...."oh yes, that is what he/she means". This is why "ah ha" moments come "after" not "before". And, of course everyone is slightly different in oral cavity, teeth, tongue, and ability to create a jet stream, so the description may be a bit different but they are a great starting point.

I identify more with the steep learning curve type. Bless those who come to it (the knack) quickly but my journey is taking longer. There is definitely progress and "ah ha" moments but nothing is overnight. Just consistent practice, no way around it.

DK
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"90% of playing is half mental." Yogi Berra
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
"90% of playing is half mental." Yogi Berra


Isn't that 45% mental...?
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Dark Knight
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
Ed Kennedy wrote:
"90% of playing is half mental." Yogi Berra


Isn't that 45% mental...?



That gave me a good laugh.

DK
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