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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:34 am Post subject: Solder joint failure ... |
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So, I was setting up for a big band rehearsal this afternoon. Took my Kanstul 1525 flugel out of the case, put a mouthpiece in, and checked the valve movement and the third slide trigger... when <clatter> <ka-chunk> <zing>
Wth?
Oh neat. The third slide trigger assembly just came right off of the slide. Solder joint just snapped apart from the inside of the slide bend just by extending it and reacting it once. Totally unexpected.
I own a lot of instruments, yet I've never had anything like that happen before. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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zaferis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2330 Location: Beavercreek, OH
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Back a lifetime ago, I was watching Dizzie setting up for a gig.. as he was doing his mic check, he played a couple notes and the right hand finger ring (on top of the leadpipe) snapped off, and went flying onto the drum set.
You never know when something like that will let go. The good news is that it's repairable. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Ask your repair tech to resolder it with "Sta-Brite" silver bearing solder. It is much stronger than lead/tin. |
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James Becker Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005 Posts: 2827 Location: Littleton, MA
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Ed Kennedy wrote: | Ask your repair tech to resolder it with "Sta-Brite" silver bearing solder. It is much stronger than lead/tin. |
Ed is correct, lead free tin-silver Sta-Brite solder is known to have greater sheer strength than convectional lead solder. Since the lever bridge is a casting it would be wise to thoroughly scrape or better yet use a coarse file like a round rasp to provide a better surface for the solder to bond. Sta-bright also makes a very strong flux to go along with their solder.
I should add, the higher temperature required will likely burn the epoxy finish, so you'll likely want to strip the area and lever bridge BEFORE mounting.
Good luck! _________________ James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2596
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Ed Kennedy wrote: | Ask your repair tech to resolder it with "Sta-Brite" silver bearing solder. It is much stronger than lead/tin. |
Is it different than other silver solders? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
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Bob Stevenson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 1139 Location: Essex, England
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:25 am Post subject: |
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If you go to a really expert craftsman he/she will be able to use heat resistant clay around the joint so heat damage is kept to a minimum....
If the repairer is not going to do this then take the instrument/parts to a good jewller or jewllery restorer as this method is very widely used to resolder antique gold and silver by building up the metal parts with very hot torch. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:31 am Post subject: |
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zaferis wrote: | Back a lifetime ago, I was watching Dizzie setting up for a gig.. as he was doing his mic check, he played a couple notes and the right hand finger ring (on top of the leadpipe) snapped off, and went flying onto the drum set.
You never know when something like that will let go. The good news is that it's repairable. |
I have a friend that played with Maynard for a while. He tells a story of a clinic that the section participated in. At one point Maynard goaded my friend to play something high. And just like in your Dizzy story, he tore the pinky hook clean off. Maynard cracked a joke and there was lots of chuckling. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:00 am Post subject: |
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From what I was able to google, it looks like Sta-Brite has a low silver content and needs lower temperature than the 'hard' silver solders that are used for jewelry, etc.
If a high temp silver solder is used for repair, there is the risk that other nearby soldered joints could be affected.
My understanding is that during manufacturing, the parts that need the high strength and high temp silver solder are done first, and then further nearby soldering is done with lower temp solders.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Robert P wrote: | Ed Kennedy wrote: | Ask your repair tech to resolder it with "Sta-Brite" silver bearing solder. It is much stronger than lead/tin. |
Is it different than other silver solders? |
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Soldering/Lead-Free-Solders/Stay-Brite-8.aspx
Sta-Brite is NOT silver solder. It is a higher temperature solder than lead/tin, a silver BEARING solder. I believe that it is tin/silver. True silver solder requires brazing and annealing temperatures (metal heated to cherry red). I use silver solder for making or repairing braces OFF of the horn. BTW, lead free solder is required by most plumbing codes to prevent lead from leaching into drinking water, so it is a very common item these days. |
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Dieter Z Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jun 2013 Posts: 449 Location: Mountains of North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:37 am Post subject: |
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Had some similar experiences. The 3rd slide trigger 'fail' off while cleaning my cornet.
On another cornet, the 3 slide assembly just fell off on to the carpet after a church service.
Both were easy fixes for the tech. _________________ B & H Sovereign 928
Conn 80A
F. Besson Brevette Kanstul made
B&S Challenger II 3137 rl
Buescher 400 - 225 (WWII)
Benge 90C
Eastman 540 D/Eb
ACB Fluegelhorn
Selmer Picc
ACB mouthpieces for most of my playing |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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James Becker wrote: | Ed Kennedy wrote: | Ask your repair tech to resolder it with "Sta-Brite" silver bearing solder. It is much stronger than lead/tin. |
Ed is correct, lead free tin-silver Sta-Brite solder is known to have greater sheer strength than convectional lead solder. Since the lever bridge is a casting it would be wise to thoroughly scrape or better yet use a coarse file like a round rasp to provide a better surface for the solder to bond. Sta-bright also makes a very strong flux to go along with their solder.
I should add, the higher temperature required will likely burn the epoxy finish, so you'll likely want to strip the area and lever bridge BEFORE mounting.
Good luck! |
Very interesting. I didn't have much time (less than a day) before I needed it in working order, so I took it to a local repair place a lot of locals use. Unlike most of my other horns, I don't have a spare flugel lying around.
If I had more time, sending it off to somebody like you would have possibly been a better option. For now though, it seems to work well. I don't know what they used, since I read this after it was already fixed and didn't ask. _________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away." |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3306 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone have comments or experience with the 'electronic supply store' low-temp silver-bearing solder paste (combined flux and filler) that comes packaged in a plastic syringe?
I've used it on some DIY items, and it is convenient and seems to make a good joint - if good prep work is done.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Brad361 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 7080 Location: Houston, TX.
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Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:07 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | zaferis wrote: | Back a lifetime ago, I was watching Dizzie setting up for a gig.. as he was doing his mic check, he played a couple notes and the right hand finger ring (on top of the leadpipe) snapped off, and went flying onto the drum set.
You never know when something like that will let go. The good news is that it's repairable. |
I have a friend that played with Maynard for a while. He tells a story of a clinic that the section participated in. At one point Maynard goaded my friend to play something high. And just like in your Dizzy story, he tore the pinky hook clean off. Maynard cracked a joke and there was lots of chuckling. |
Dang, he broke the octave key!😎
Brad _________________ When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
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