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BE for Trombone ?



 
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:08 pm    Post subject: BE for Trombone ? Reply with quote

I've had great success with BE for Trumpet and am wondering if anyone has done BE for Trombone, like Valerie Wells has done for the Horn? Thanks.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: BE for Trombone ? Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I've had great success with BE for Trumpet and am wondering if anyone has done BE for Trombone, like Valerie Wells has done for the Horn? Thanks.

I received and started playing my new Baritone Horn about two months ago. Since I only do BE, I use it on the Bari as well and with relative good initial results.

I suppose it is another case in point that the size of the mouthpiece has less relevance when using BE.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Harry
PS I am going to post this on the "Doubling up on Baritone" thread as well.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=148374&start=40
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that music in treble or bass clef. or is it just memorized appropriately?
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Is that music in treble or bass clef. or is it just memorized appropriately?

Both.
I play the Baritone in a Geezer concert band.
The Baritone Horns and Euphoniums have a choice between either clef.
I only do treble clef.
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tjilp
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm doing BE for trumpet for almost 3 years now, still making good progress.
I used to play (also) tenor trombone and bass tuba before I started BE, so - quite recently - I wondered if I could apply some BE principles to these instruments.
Obviously roll-in and roll-out exercises can hardly be done (can they?) but snapping slurs and TOLs can be done very well and are really useful to get a good, solid and flexible tone.

The low register of the tuba corresponds to the double pedals on trumpet, so my embouchure for this register on tuba was instantly there. On the other hand, my embouchure for the low register on trombone was quite weak, while in the high register I could easily reach to solid D5's (scientific pitch notation, concert pitch).

Actually I was investigating if I could use tuba and/or trombone for further reinforcement of my trumpet embouchure. I left tuba and trombone since (again), because I want to focus on trumpet high range, but the weak embouchure for trombone low register has led me to more regularly practicing the first pedal range on trumpet too - besides the double pedals. The very same roll-out exercises, but then with first pedal notes (instead of double)! For me, it helps to the feel of a continuous embouchure from low to high. (And I think it will improve my "ïnstant embouchure" on trombone as well).

Maarten
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience as a band director my trombone/euphonium students are almost always my first brass students to get a good sound. I believe that the size of the mouthpiece gives the lips the freedom to naturally move in the way that RO and RI dictate. My horn and trumpet students initially struggle to get movement in the embouchure (IMO, the 7C mouthpiece is bad about pinning the lips in place). My tuba students usually do alright in the mid/upper range, but have trouble loosening up enough to get into the low range. All that is to say that I think the pedal exercises are going to be part of the natural embouchure on trombone/euphonium.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, guys.

Matt - do you know if trombones, then, have their own bone-specific exercises and that it's not necessarily transferable from, just transposed, trumpet exercises?

Also, what written material do you use for your beginners? Thanks.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing about all the low brass (bass trumpet, valve/slide trombone, baritone, euphonium, and tuba) is that they have a completely usable pedal register -- just like flugelhorn. "Pedal C" (which most low-brass players would call "pedal Bb) slots just fine, as do the next six descending chromatic notes down to pedal E (concert).

When I've worked on BE exercises on trombone I've always taken the RO exercises up an octave, taking advantage of the functional pedal register. And I haven't bothered trying to make an extreme RO embouchure, since I can honk big fat pedal tones with the trombone embouchure I developed from age 10 to 30, so I consider that my RO embouchure for trombone.

All this said, BE helped me develop my trumpet embouchure, which is fairly rolled in. My long-term goal is to develop a trombone embouchure that doesn't mess with my trumpet chops, so I concentrate on RI exercises on trombone.
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani,

That's a little bit out of my wheelhouse. Within the setting of middle & high school band I'm using standard band methods and a lot of long tone exercises based on Remington, lip slurs, scales, etc.

I'm going to link the technique packet that my alma mater's trombone studio uses. They put out some killer trombonists and this packet is very thorough. What I don't see in there is any pedal tone work, however.

http://www.rollslide.com/assets/whitaker-warm-up.pdf
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mafields627 wrote:
kehaulani,

That's a little bit out of my wheelhouse. Within the setting of middle & high school band I'm using standard band methods and a lot of long tone exercises based on Remington, lip slurs, scales, etc.

I'm going to link the technique packet that my alma mater's trombone studio uses. They put out some killer trombonists and this packet is very thorough. What I don't see in there is any pedal tone work, however.

http://www.rollslide.com/assets/whitaker-warm-up.pdf


Well, the "Long Tones (Remington)" exercise on page four descends below non-F-attachment range near the beginning of staff four, reaches pedal Bb at the end of that staff, and the fifth staff is nothing but pedal tones.

The very next "Flow Studies" exercise gets down into pedal tones.

Both of those exercises (as well as others in the packet) are written assuming the player has a trombone with an F-attachment.

In the trombone world, pedal tones aren't a Special Thing. There are no trombone teachers out there warning that pedal tones (played incorrectly, of course) will screw up your chops. Pedal tones are a valid part of the instrument's range, and any decent player should be able to play them.

As a result, trombone methods don't make a huge deal about pedal tones, like calling them "Pedal Tone Exercises."

I'll point out one further terminology difference between the trumpet and trombone tribes. In the trumpet world, we call the F a half-step below low F# "pedal F." In the trombone world, the first pedal note is "pedal Bb" ("pedal C" in trumpet terminology).

In the trombone world, the notes between low E (concert) and pedal Bb are called "false tones" and I never, in all my 20 years of playing trombone seriously, encountered any trombone methodology that encouraged playing those notes without an F attachment. Now, if you had an F-attachment (like a fourth valve on trumpet), go for it. But there's no mystical value associated with forcing out those notes on a "straight trombone" (one without an F-attachment -- the equivalent of a three-valve trumpet).
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nieuwguyski, I stand corrected. I should have looked more thoroughly.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy, this is really helpful, and interesting, information for me. Very useful. Thanks a lot.
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"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis." Chet Baker

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tjilp
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A fine example of fast rolling out and in on tuba is this video of David McLemore playing Penderecki's Capriccio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kUCgRjtwPY

On trumpet, Roll In #4 is the ultimate exercise. It puts your embouchure in perspective of the full range of motion. Of course - in real life - you only need the upper octaves of this range, which then is primarily in the realm of rolled-in. But it is only from an understanding of that full range, that you can begin to extend your range upwards in a technically correct way.

(This seems to me the very essence of the BE method - Thank you so much, Jeff!)

Maarten
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just an update: does anybody know of, or have, any PDFs in bass clef of BE exercises for trombone? Thanks.
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"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis." Chet Baker

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Conn 80A, "New Wonder", Cornet
Hans Hoyer G10 French Horn
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