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Solder joint failure ...



 
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:34 am    Post subject: Solder joint failure ... Reply with quote

So, I was setting up for a big band rehearsal this afternoon. Took my Kanstul 1525 flugel out of the case, put a mouthpiece in, and checked the valve movement and the third slide trigger... when <clatter> <ka-chunk> <zing>

Wth?

Oh neat. The third slide trigger assembly just came right off of the slide. Solder joint just snapped apart from the inside of the slide bend just by extending it and reacting it once. Totally unexpected.

I own a lot of instruments, yet I've never had anything like that happen before.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back a lifetime ago, I was watching Dizzie setting up for a gig.. as he was doing his mic check, he played a couple notes and the right hand finger ring (on top of the leadpipe) snapped off, and went flying onto the drum set.

You never know when something like that will let go. The good news is that it's repairable.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ask your repair tech to resolder it with "Sta-Brite" silver bearing solder. It is much stronger than lead/tin.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
Ask your repair tech to resolder it with "Sta-Brite" silver bearing solder. It is much stronger than lead/tin.


Ed is correct, lead free tin-silver Sta-Brite solder is known to have greater sheer strength than convectional lead solder. Since the lever bridge is a casting it would be wise to thoroughly scrape or better yet use a coarse file like a round rasp to provide a better surface for the solder to bond. Sta-bright also makes a very strong flux to go along with their solder.

I should add, the higher temperature required will likely burn the epoxy finish, so you'll likely want to strip the area and lever bridge BEFORE mounting.

Good luck!
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
Ask your repair tech to resolder it with "Sta-Brite" silver bearing solder. It is much stronger than lead/tin.

Is it different than other silver solders?
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Bob Stevenson
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you go to a really expert craftsman he/she will be able to use heat resistant clay around the joint so heat damage is kept to a minimum....

If the repairer is not going to do this then take the instrument/parts to a good jewller or jewllery restorer as this method is very widely used to resolder antique gold and silver by building up the metal parts with very hot torch.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaferis wrote:
Back a lifetime ago, I was watching Dizzie setting up for a gig.. as he was doing his mic check, he played a couple notes and the right hand finger ring (on top of the leadpipe) snapped off, and went flying onto the drum set.

You never know when something like that will let go. The good news is that it's repairable.

I have a friend that played with Maynard for a while. He tells a story of a clinic that the section participated in. At one point Maynard goaded my friend to play something high. And just like in your Dizzy story, he tore the pinky hook clean off. Maynard cracked a joke and there was lots of chuckling.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I was able to google, it looks like Sta-Brite has a low silver content and needs lower temperature than the 'hard' silver solders that are used for jewelry, etc.

If a high temp silver solder is used for repair, there is the risk that other nearby soldered joints could be affected.

My understanding is that during manufacturing, the parts that need the high strength and high temp silver solder are done first, and then further nearby soldering is done with lower temp solders.

Jay
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
Ed Kennedy wrote:
Ask your repair tech to resolder it with "Sta-Brite" silver bearing solder. It is much stronger than lead/tin.

Is it different than other silver solders?


http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Soldering/Lead-Free-Solders/Stay-Brite-8.aspx

Sta-Brite is NOT silver solder. It is a higher temperature solder than lead/tin, a silver BEARING solder. I believe that it is tin/silver. True silver solder requires brazing and annealing temperatures (metal heated to cherry red). I use silver solder for making or repairing braces OFF of the horn. BTW, lead free solder is required by most plumbing codes to prevent lead from leaching into drinking water, so it is a very common item these days.
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Dieter Z
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had some similar experiences. The 3rd slide trigger 'fail' off while cleaning my cornet.

On another cornet, the 3 slide assembly just fell off on to the carpet after a church service.

Both were easy fixes for the tech.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
Ed Kennedy wrote:
Ask your repair tech to resolder it with "Sta-Brite" silver bearing solder. It is much stronger than lead/tin.


Ed is correct, lead free tin-silver Sta-Brite solder is known to have greater sheer strength than convectional lead solder. Since the lever bridge is a casting it would be wise to thoroughly scrape or better yet use a coarse file like a round rasp to provide a better surface for the solder to bond. Sta-bright also makes a very strong flux to go along with their solder.

I should add, the higher temperature required will likely burn the epoxy finish, so you'll likely want to strip the area and lever bridge BEFORE mounting.

Good luck!



Very interesting. I didn't have much time (less than a day) before I needed it in working order, so I took it to a local repair place a lot of locals use. Unlike most of my other horns, I don't have a spare flugel lying around.

If I had more time, sending it off to somebody like you would have possibly been a better option. For now though, it seems to work well. I don't know what they used, since I read this after it was already fixed and didn't ask.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone have comments or experience with the 'electronic supply store' low-temp silver-bearing solder paste (combined flux and filler) that comes packaged in a plastic syringe?

I've used it on some DIY items, and it is convenient and seems to make a good joint - if good prep work is done.

Jay
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
zaferis wrote:
Back a lifetime ago, I was watching Dizzie setting up for a gig.. as he was doing his mic check, he played a couple notes and the right hand finger ring (on top of the leadpipe) snapped off, and went flying onto the drum set.

You never know when something like that will let go. The good news is that it's repairable.

I have a friend that played with Maynard for a while. He tells a story of a clinic that the section participated in. At one point Maynard goaded my friend to play something high. And just like in your Dizzy story, he tore the pinky hook clean off. Maynard cracked a joke and there was lots of chuckling.


Dang, he broke the octave key!😎

Brad
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