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Question on Doubling up on Baritone


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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update
I received my King Baritone 625 about a week and a half ago. It came with a Bach 6.5 AL mouthpiece.
At first it felt like a bathtub and I thought I would have to go again on one of those expensive mouthpiece safaris. However I simply cannot afford that.

So I started on the 6.5AL applying what I have been learning with the BE method.

I’m finding out that indeed the mouthpiece size doesn’t seem to matter all that much.

The first few days I practiced the Barri about 15 minutes after I started the day on Trumpet.

After playing the baritone I went immediately back to trumpet. Now I am up to about 25 minutes per day on the Baritone.

This seems to be a good daily routine for now. So I suspect I will stay with that for a while.

I will keep you posted.
Cheers
Harry
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starkadder
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There can be a benefit to warming up on the baritone as part of your trumpet routine:

1) You set the feeling for a relaxed embouchure.
2) You set the feeling for moving a LOT of air.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

starkadder wrote:
There can be a benefit to warming up on the baritone as part of your trumpet routine:

1) You set the feeling for a relaxed embouchure.
2) You set the feeling for moving a LOT of air.


Thanks for your reply.
I am pretty well set in my 30 minute daily warm-up routine that finishes with the Roll-Out and Roll-In Balanced Embouchure (BE) excersises. I have too many good reasons for not altering that.
Thanks again.
Cheers
Harry
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes! That is how I earned "band camper of the year" at the regional university the summer after my high school junior year: co-lead trumpet in jazz band, baritone in concert band.

Now, 40 years later, I am again playing baritone in concert band and trumpet in a smaller ensemble.

Yes, each horn is different, and the balance between volume and velocity of the airstream must be attended to, but for me, at least, each helps me play the other. And nothing ever gets stale.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks much for your reply.

iiipopes wrote:
Yes, each horn is different, and the balance between volume and velocity of the air stream must be attended to, but for me, at least, each helps me play the other. And nothing ever gets stale.

I am coming to the same conclusions; so far at least.

I am up to 30 minutes per day on the Baritone Horn sandwiched in between my trumpet practices. I play the same tunes as I play on the trumpet.

The advantage of the Balanced Embouchure (BE) is now really noticeable and beginning to pay off.

Cheers,
Harry
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Talking about doubling up .... Reply with quote

Talking about doubling on low brass .....

I just had a screaming deal on a Kanstul 4-valve Tenor/Alto horn.

Will be arriving on Wednesday.

You folks may want to check out Kanstul's year end sale.

http://www.kanstul.com/announcing-the-Kanstul-year-end-instrument-and-mouthpiece-sale/

Recall Charles Hargett is back with Kanstul. He is handling this sale.

Soooo many horns ..... suuuuuch little money .......

No, I do not get a commission.

At best maybe Jack will buy me a "cold one" if I ever make it again to Mesa AZ .... .....
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a link of about 5 years ago with some good constructive comments on doubling.

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1272617

Cheers
Harry
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evolution
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play the trumpet for almost 30 years and added euphonium and trombone in the last four years. As often as possible I play both kinds of instruments on the same day. Mainly starting with the trumpet. Then switching to the bigger mpc. The other way around I need a bit of time between the sets cause the small mpc after the big mpc feels quite awkward.
I enjoy the benefits of the other instrument on both sides. The big breath of the trombone opens up my trumpet-sound and range. The focused lip setting of the trumpet allows a good uper register on the trombone and good stamina. Perfect.
I think it is possible to play both instruments in a way that compliments the other technique. When a important gig is coming up I concentrate the last 3 days on the instrument I have to use in the gig. Preparing the pieces is no problem while playing both instruments. But the last few percent of power and security is there when I play only the gig-horn for 3 days. That means not only trumpet but the exact trumpet and mpc that I plan to use for the gig.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

evolution wrote:
I play the trumpet for almost 30 years and added euphonium and trombone in the last four years. As often as possible I play both kinds of instruments on the same day. Mainly starting with the trumpet. Then switching to the bigger mpc. The other way around I need a bit of time between the sets cause the small mpc after the big mpc feels quite awkward.
I enjoy the benefits of the other instrument on both sides. The big breath of the trombone opens up my trumpet-sound and range. The focused lip setting of the trumpet allows a good upper register on the trombone and good stamina. Perfect.
I think it is possible to play both instruments in a way that compliments the other technique. When a important gig is coming up I concentrate the last 3 days on the instrument I have to use in the gig. Preparing the pieces is no problem while playing both instruments. But the last few percent of power and security is there when I play only the gig-horn for 3 days. That means not only trumpet but the exact trumpet and mpc that I plan to use for the gig.


This is great feedback from someone "who has been there and done that".
Much appreciated.

Cheers,
Harry
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:33 am    Post subject: Low Brass Doubling Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
So I started on the 6.5AL applying what I have been learning with the BE method. I’m finding out that indeed the mouthpiece size doesn’t seem to matter all that much.
Harry

Follow up:

In retrospect, the mouthpiece 6.5AL continued feeling like a bathtub and it also turned out to be the culprit for poor intonation at the low end. With all slides pushed-in the "natural" C below the staff came out as a B. I had to "lip-up" like crazy. Not good.

I followed the advice given by earlier posters and bought a smallish mouthpiece: the Schilke 40.

All problems resolved. Now the horn plays real well in tune, while the mouthpiece feels "normal" to me. I have full range with excellent tone from F# below the staff to C above the staff.

Meanwhile, as I mentioned previously, I got a great deal on a 4-valve one-of-a-kind Kanstul Eb Tenor. More on it later.

Suffice it to say that I am now practicing Trumpet, Baritone Horn and Tenor Horn every day. Makes me wonder how I had ever time to hold down a real job

Here is, to me, the most interesting part.

As has been mentioned by several other posters in this doubling-up topic, the low brass mouthpieces are not at all messing with my trumpet embouchure. So that in itself is very encouraging.

I hope others will start/continue chiming-in on this Low Brass Doubling topic.

Cheers,
Harry
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GuidoCorona
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Harry, now I understand why I could not find your alto 4-valver on the Kanstul site... 'Tis one of a kind!

Any chance of you posting an audio or video clip of yourself playing it through the whole range, including the chromatic pedal range?

Saluti, G.
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GuidoCorona wrote:
Hello Harry, now I understand why I could not find your alto 4-valver on the Kanstul site... 'Tis one of a kind!

Any chance of you posting an audio or video clip of yourself playing it through the whole range, including the chromatic pedal range?

Saluti, G.

Guido,
Yes, it's one of a kind.

I just happened to luck upon this horn. Kanstul has a year-end sale (see below for a partial copy of my post November 19 on this thread) with some good deals to be had.

I received the sales list from them and noticed an Alto horn on the list. I called Charles and after he told me about the horn, I bought it on the spot at an attractive price.

Here is a copy of my partial post on Nov. 19.
Harry Hilgers wrote:
You folks may want to check out Kanstul's year end sale.

http://www.kanstul.com/announcing-the-Kanstul-year-end-instrument-and-mouthpiece-sale/

Recall Charles Hargett is back with Kanstul. He is handling this sale.

So I have had the horn less than a month, while just a week or so prior I traded a C-trumpet for the King 625 Baritone.

So I am still going through a period of learning the intonation on both these horns.

I haven't even started using yet the Alto 4th valve to explore intonation alternatives.

I play my trumpet in a local Geezer Concert Band and Brass Ensemble.

In spring I will also join our sub-group, the Geezer Intermediate band, to play the King Baritone.

In June I hope to attend again a week-long British Brass Band workshop at the Western State College In Gunnison Colorado to play the Alto (Tenor for the Brits) horn, instead of my cornet.

Meanwhile i have to get past a routine surgery on my left "trigger" thumb. A few months ago it all of a sudden started hurting. It is an out-patient surgery next week Friday at around noon. I will have my daily practice done prior.

I will be able to practice again the following day as long as I keep my left arm above heart level. It will be somewhat awkward with a immobilized left thumb, but I have been experimenting and I should be able to manage. My first line E on trumpet will just have to be a little bit sharp

I have no clue as to how to post a video clip though. Heck I have no clue as to how to even post a picture.

Cheers,
Harry
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a re-post from a BE thread:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1554528#1554528

Quote:
Quote:
kehaulani wrote:
I've had great success with BE for Trumpet and am wondering if anyone has done BE for Trombone, like Valerie Wells has done for the Horn? Thanks.

I received and started playing my new Baritone Horn about two months ago. Since I only do BE, I use it on the Bari as well and with relative good initial results.

I suppose it is another case in point that the size of the mouthpiece has less relevance when using BE.

Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Harry
PS I am going to post this on the "Doubling up on Baritone" thread as well.
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=148374&start=40

Cheers,
Harry
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iiipopes
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the OP likes the 6 1/2 AL, but finds the tone a little grainy in the low register, and wants to keep the same rim diameter and feel, the Wick Ultra Baritone SM6U is essentially a 6 1/2 AL with a deeper cup, and that is what I use, both on the King I used to own, and the Wessex 115B that is the 4-valve version of the King. For me, it smooths out the low register without affecting tone, intonation or endurance in the higher registers. I didn't want to recommend it until the OP had significant time on the stock mouthpiece to see if he was going to continue on baritone.
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I regularly abide the musical depths alongside Beelzebub as my avocation (meaning - I play bass instruments for weekend gigs, upper brass for fun and games, and keep the day job).
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks much for your post. It would be great if many more would share their experiences with doubling on low brass.

iiipopes wrote:
If the OP likes the 6 1/2 AL, but finds the tone a little grainy in the low register, and wants to keep the same rim diameter and feel, the Wick Ultra Baritone SM6U is essentially a 6 1/2 AL with a deeper cup, and that is what I use, both on the King I used to own, and the Wessex 115B that is the 4-valve version of the King. For me, it smooths out the low register without affecting tone, intonation or endurance in the higher registers. I didn't want to recommend it until the OP had significant time on the stock mouthpiece to see if he was going to continue on baritone.

Recall one of my earlier posts:
Quote:

In retrospect, the mouthpiece 6.5AL continued feeling like a bathtub and it also turned out to be the culprit for poor intonation at the low end. With all slides pushed-in the "natural" C below the staff came out as a B. I had to "lip-up" like crazy. Not good.

I followed the advice given by earlier posters and bought a smallish mouthpiece: the Schilke 40.

All problems resolved. Now the horn plays real well in tune, while the mouthpiece feels "normal" to me. I have full range with excellent tone from F# below the staff to C above the staff.


I am now very used to the Schilke 40. Works good with a clean tone from F# below the staff to C above the staff. Now no more than the usual inherent intonation issues.

The benefits of BE are very apparent. Especially the Roll-In.

Thanks again for your post.

Cheers,
Harry
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting thread, indeed. As I wrote earlier, I have been playing bass trumpet for a little over a year now and find that I play more btr at home than trumpet. I just like the sound and way the thing plays.

On the mouthpiece I have had the same experience as some others just wrote. Too large an mp will make the instrument sound tubby and the intonation go south. I play a Couesnon 3 with an inner diameter of about 23.5 mm which seems to fit fine. The larger mp I had before was in the 25.5 mm range and way too big. So mp does affect the playing, sound and intonation, but really the air stream and tongue are the important things (no one would have expected that, eh ).

I would also like to confirm that playing both btr amd trumpet actually helps my playing rather than causing issues.

A question on the alto horn discussed above: the link does not seem to work - are you guys talking about an Eb bass trumpet-like instrument? Became interested in these as well but just purchased a C trumpet, so will have to hold off for a while ...
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Very interesting thread, indeed. As I wrote earlier, I have been playing bass trumpet for a little over a year now and find that I play more btr at home than trumpet. I just like the sound and way the thing plays.

On the mouthpiece I have had the same experience as some others just wrote. Too large an mp will make the instrument sound tubby and the intonation go south. I play a Couesnon 3 with an inner diameter of about 23.5 mm which seems to fit fine. The larger mp I had before was in the 25.5 mm range and way too big. So mp does affect the playing, sound and intonation, but really the air stream and tongue are the important things (no one would have expected that, eh ).

I would also like to confirm that playing both btr amd trumpet actually helps my playing rather than causing issues.

A question on the alto horn discussed above: the link does not seem to work - are you guys talking about an Eb bass trumpet-like instrument? Became interested in these as well but just purchased a C trumpet, so will have to hold off for a while ...

Thanks much for chiming in.

Your mouthpiece experiences add to the "doubling-low-brass-mouthpiece" data-pool. Should be helpful for others.

My Schilke 40 has a 22.53. It fits "like a glove". Good tone over the full 2.5 octaves range.

From the Schilke catalog:
40 22.53 .887 15/64 Since the cup diameter is small, the upper register is improved. In addition, the tone has considerable projection. It is excellent for the bass trumpet and valve trombone.


Quote:
I would also like to confirm that playing both btr and trumpet actually helps my playing rather than causing issues.

So far the doubling seems to actually help my trumpet playing. But of course I have only been at if for just over a month. So the jury is still out on this.

I was talking about the Alto Horn as used in British Brass Bands.
The Brits refer to it as a Tenor Horn.
Here is an example of the Kanstul version.
http://www.kanstul.com/941-eb-tenoralto-british-style/

I have the four valve version, which is a one-of-a-kind.

The link indeed no longer works. I suspect they closed their year end sale.

Cheers,
Harry

PS I just do-hickied an oboe reed to a trumpet insert and I am actually getting some sounds out of the trumpet at somewhere E and F above the staff; mostly bad sounds though.

So am I playing an Opet or a Trumboe?
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 6:12 pm    Post subject: BBB forum users question: Comparing 2 Yam Bb Baritone Horns Reply with quote

Hello Louise and all other BBB forum users:

This is a question for British Brass Band forum users, that maybe able to get some information from their Baritone players on the INTONATION comparison between the Yamaha YBH-831S Neo Series Bb Baritone Horn and the Yamaha YBH-621S Series Baritone Horn.

Both are compensated. The Neo-831 is a more recent horn and more expense than the 621. The 621 however has a fourth valve to drop down a fourth. This may come in handy.

I do have a review from the David Werden forum. However maybe somewhere in Great Britain (the land of the BBB's ) someone can give me additional impressions on these two horns.

Thanks much.
Cheers,
Harry
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Low Brass Doubling Reply with quote

[quote="Harry Hilgers"]
Harry Hilgers wrote:

In retrospect, the mouthpiece 6.5AL continued feeling like a bathtub and it also turned out to be the culprit for poor intonation at the low end. With all slides pushed-in the "natural" C below the staff came out as a B. I had to "lip-up" like crazy. Not good.

I followed the advice given by earlier posters and bought a smallish mouthpiece: the Schilke 40.

All problems resolved. Now the horn plays real well in tune, while the mouthpiece feels "normal" to me. I have full range with excellent tone from F# below the staff to C above the staff.

As has been mentioned by several other posters in this doubling-up topic, the low brass mouthpieces are not at all messing with my trumpet embouchure. So that in itself is very encouraging.

Follow up:

The Schilke 40 is working out perfectly.
Playing now in three Geezer Bands:
Baritone in Concert Band: 3.5 hours per week with rehearsals split over 2 days.
Cornet in Dixieland Band: 1 hour per week.
Trumpet in Brass Ensemble: 1 hour per week.

Switching mouthpieces back and forth is mostly a non-event. It takes a few minutes playing after each switch to feel fully comfortable again.

Pretty soon adding in the Tenor/Alto horn to get ready for a couple of BBB week long work shops.

Cheers,
Harry
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations - I am just trying to save the money for a REALLY good bass trumpet ... switching really is not that much of a concern. Even back to trumpet feels pretty relaxed, even though I have not played bass trumpet and trumpet on the same gig yet. Keep going
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