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Reinhardt-Caruso connection?



 
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject: Reinhardt-Caruso connection? Reply with quote

Hello All – I studied with Doc in Philly in the 1970s, and much more recently with Dave Sheetz here in New Hampshire. I’m now 67, still going strong, playing lead trumpet in a local big band, still learning from Doc’s teachings and from this forum. I’m committed to the Reinhardt system, but also I’ve learned a lot from the teachings of other great instructors and their books. Recently, I’ve had excellent results with Carmine Caruso’s "Musical Calisthenics for Brass." So, two questions. First, did Doc and Caruso know each other, and if so, how well—to the point of sharing ideas? They were contemporaries (Doc 1908-89; Caruso 1904-87), with Doc based in Philly, and Caruso in New York City—not very far apart. (I hope Dave Sheetz is reading this, because if anyone knows the answer to this, it’s probably him). Second, which, if any, of Doc’s exercises might be similar to the ones in Caruso’s "Musical Calisthenics for Brass"? Perhaps replies could reference "The Reinhardt Routines," which Rich Willey and Dave Sheetz did such a great job on. Thanks!
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Irving
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was the golden era of chop docs. Caruso, Reinhardt, Stamp on the West Coast. I wish that I had studied with any one of these guys. The only exercise that may be common between Caruso and the Pivot System as far as I know is the spider web. I have no idea whether these two men knew each other. Their respective methods are like night and day. Caruso as far as I know had no problems with his students practicing different methods. Reinhardt, I wouldn't know. From what I've gleaned from Dave Sheetz, there might have been a rivalry between the students of each teacher, but between the teachers themselves? Don't know. Their methods were pretty far apart from each other.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say probably the Pivot Stabilizer and maybe the Spider Web. Also maybe the Tetrachord Routine because that also uses intervals.

What Reinhardt and Caruso have in common is that both methods use nose-breathing, both encourage the idea of leaving the mouthpiece on your face during exercises to lock in your chops (although in the Caruso 6 notes and seconds, the mouthpiece NEVER comes off your face until you finish and Reinhardt still has you taking the horn off your face regularly).

Both methods also are very feel-oriented as well, which is a big plus.

They are pretty different methods overall. Reinhardt is very scientific; you really get a full-scale description of what's going on in the mouthpiece, air-stream directions, what the tongue is doing and on and on. Caruso has the opposite philosophy, more like, "play the exercises, relax, don't worry, build the muscles and your chops will do what they need to do." There's merit to both approaches.
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I studied with both of these gentlemen in the late 60s and very early 70s. I don't remember either mentioning the other.

I always felt like they both were addressing the same embouchure dynamic from opposite directions. Carmine called it the "twist" - the movement of the wrist/bell/ mouthpiece on the chops that kept the aperture aligned with the opening of the teeth. His basic exercises were meant to program reflex actions to keep that alignment. Doc noted the motion of the mouthpiece on the chops, classified the variations, and made the player aware of the correct motion, so that action could be optimized.

That's my take on the very basic part of their teachings. One thing they differed on with more advanced work was the use of pedal tones. Carmine used them extensively.

Another commonality, they both believed the best performance came from using a high register setting for all playing - bringing down the top - and both believed in learning efficiency by working in, or from, the high register.

It's bee a long time but those are principles that still guide my practicing.

Alan
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trtrtr1
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 6:17 am    Post subject: Carmine, Rinehardt, Stevens, Maggio Reply with quote

I saw Rinehardt in the late 50's and Carmine in the late 60's. I've known Dave Sheetz since he was 16. We were kids in Harrisburg, Pa. I don't recall Carmine mentioning Doc. We did talk about Roy Stevens, another chop teach in NY at that time, The Costello upstream method. Carmine's twist vs. Doc's pivot? How about Maggio on the west coast? Carmine and Maggio had long setting format. Doc would type your chops and Carmine didn't seem to care but he would get really bugged if you came in with a different mouthpiece! Whew! I got to work with students of all these teachers and they all produced some excellent players for sure!
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3-Valve
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I studied with both. I saw no connection between the two of them, in fact I'd say that their overall teaching philosophies and personalities were polar opposites.

Reinhardt was an analytical, a thinker. He gave his students many physical things to thing about while playing, in fact he had a sheet of 22 points to think about before beginning their daily blowing chores. And that was just the tip of the iceberg. If you read his Encyclopedia of the Pivot System, it's just chock full of things to think about doing and controlling while you're playing and when you studied with him he gave you your own customized list of things to think about.

Caruso, on the other hand, while also analytical and full of knowledge about the physical aspects of playing, his teaching approach was closer to that of a feeler rather than a thinker. His goal was to quiet the student's mind. He wanted them thinking about as little as possible. He only had the four rules, which basically were designed to develop coordination and get the student's mind off of everything else. He never once told me to do anything in particular with my lips, jaw, or anything else. I think he believed in allowing the embouchure and the subconscious mind figure things out for themselves without the players overburdening themselves with conscious thought.

As far as common practice exercises between the two of them is concerned, I think you can find common exercises between all of the different methods and teachers. Pick any two notable teachers, and you'll find common exercises between them. Look at Bill Adam's routine. Some of his ideas in terms of practice exercises (calisthenics) may have been original such as the lead pipe playing and the expanding scales, but he also often prescribed exercises that came right out of Clarke, Schlossberg, Bitsch, Thiecke, and others and he employed the "spider-web" too. The magic of Bill Adam's teaching however goes WAY beyond any practice exercises or routines. If you don't know what I mean, I'd recommend reading up on Bill Adam and listen to the countless interviews and podcasts of his former students and listen to what they have to say about him. Or attend the next Bill Adam conference in NC in July. I never had the privilege of studying with Bill Adam, but would have loved to based on everything I've heard. It seems to me that studying with him was not just approach to the trumpet, it was a way of life.

Another thing that can be said about Reinhardt in terms of contrast with other teachers' routines has to do with pedal tones. While many teachers and methods employ (or at least permit) the use of pedal tones to one degree or another, Doc Reinhardt was vehemently dead set against the use of them. Not only did he insist that his students not practice them while they were under his tutelage, but he was openly critical of well-respected teachers who advocated them, and he called them out by name. I have him on tape (as our lessons were always recorded) calling out Claude Gordon and Louis Maggio. Reinhardt's derogatory description of playing pedal tones was "kissing rosebuds." He accused Maggio of taking "kissing rosebuds out of the coal mines of Italy and transplanting it in Hollywood."

The reason that Reinhardt hated pedal tones so much was two-fold: First, he felt that playing pedal tones required a different embouchure and he didn't want students playing on two embouchures. Second, he claimed that the practice of pedal tones made it impossible to articulate cleanly. Here are some direct quotes from Doc regarding pedal tones:

"How can you tongue when you're kissing rosebuds?!!"
"I have 43 pedal tone addicts with me right now and they all have the same problem, they CAN NOT TONGUE." (He didn't really have 43 pedal tone addicts studying with him, he just loved the number 43, he used it all the time).
"Maybe Gordon's got some guy out of Speedunk, Oregon who can do it. Maybe Gordon can do it. But I want to see him playing in a Latin band. I want to witness that."
"Some people swear by pedal tones. I've got news for you. More people swear AT 'em!"

As an aside, I later came to know lots of pedal tone players who are great players and believe me, they can tongue. Arturo Sandoval is an avid pedal tone player, and I think he's played in a Latin band or two in his time! I think Doc misunderstood practice of pedal tones because the overarching goal of practicing pedal tones is to eventually LESSEN the range of motion of the lips over the entire playable range of the horn, not to increase it or play on multiple embouchures. I think Doc got this one wrong, for sure.

Caruso on the other hand, was not concerned with what student's practiced or played outside of his own routines, and had no problem with pedal tones. As long as they dedicated enough time and focus on his routines and practiced them with the discipline that he prescribed, he didn't really care what they played afterwards.

I think another big difference between Reinhardt's and Caruso's teaching philosophies had to do with their contrasting backgrounds. Caruso was a saxophone player and his teaching was based on his knowledge of human physiology, neurology, and psychology.

Reinhardt's background and the basis of his teaching came out of being misguided by so many of his own former teachers and working through the frustration of their failed routines only to persevere and discover things that DID work, sometimes by accident and become the accomplished player that he was. He dedicates substantial press in his encyclopedia to quoting his former teachers and citing the fallacies that they told him and I think he carried a bit of a chip on his shoulder for the rest of his life due to those experiences. So coming from this place of frustration and adding a little of Doc's competitive nature, Doc was more prone to be critical of methods other than his own rather than praise or agree with them.

The first day that I walked into Reinhardt's studio, I recall seeing a humorous piece of text printed and framed on his wall that said "People who think they know everything are particularly aggravating to those of us who do." I think that this tongue-in-cheek quote was Doc's way of poking fun at himself because he was often so critical of other teachers and their methods. I think he felt that his "typing" of players was all-encompassing and covered everyone while other methods were more one-size-fits-all, thus less comprehensive and less valuable.

Caruso never expended any energy talking about other teachers and their methods, at least not with me. Any time I would mention stuff that Reinhardt said, all he said was "you don't need to worry about that right now" and continued on with what we were doing.

The one thing that both of these teachers had in common was that they were both lovable. Doc was a great guy to hang with and I really cherish the memories of having breakfast with him at Hobo's. He used to crack me up and because of his age, he carried a fatherly persona. I miss those times and those conversations. What a great guy. And Carmine, you could tell he loved people. Just a beautiful guy.


Last edited by 3-Valve on Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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bear30101
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice post. Welcome.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bear30101 wrote:
Very nice post. Welcome.
I'd buy something from him in the Marketplace.
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3-Valve
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bear30101 wrote:
Very nice post. Welcome.


Thank you, and thanks for taking the time to read it. Although it was lengthy, I tried very hard to keep it succinct and to the point (believe it or not) and really capture the differences between these two teachers. I found it difficult to do it justice without providing some details and some quotes.

Thanks for your feedback.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am much more intuitavely, than scientifically, driven so the Reinhardt minutia, I just leave alone. But this post really gave me a lot more perspective and I really appreciate the effort. Thanks. Valuable info, even for us scoffers.
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3-Valve
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I am much more intuitavely, than scientifically, driven so the Reinhardt minutia, I just leave alone. But this post really gave me a lot more perspective and I really appreciate the effort. Thanks. Valuable info, even for us scoffers.


Thank you. I can appreciate your stance on this; however, I think it's still good to keep an open mind toward ALL methodologies and schools of thought, study them, and learn what you can about them because you might pick up just one little tid-bit or one little exercise from one guy (it doesn't matter who it is) that might benefit you greatly even though most of what you use came from somewhere else. Many great players will attribute their success to a combination of things that they learned from a number of different teachers.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3-Valve wrote:
I studied with both. I saw no connection between the two of them, in fact I'd say that their overall teaching philosophies and personalities were polar opposites...


Very interesting - thanks for sharing!
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Type3B
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks for these great replies to my OP. I used to leave the Amtrak station in Providence, RI, at 5:54 a.m. for my 1:00 lesson with Doc in Philly. It was difficult but always worth it, because I always went thinking, "OK, Doc can help me." And he always did. Indeed, besides his genius at cup mouthpiece brass instruments, he was fun and truly loved each and every student, whether a hack like me or a monster like Dick Nash. They broke the mold after Doc ....
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