Big Band - Mics and stuff

[jicetp]

Hi,

I have received a bad news .

We have a Big Band gig this Week End and I have just been told that there wont be many mics nor speakers... No idea the exact amount of material will be.

What would be the minimum to get things right ?

I am no expert at all ( usually just lurking sound guy doing his stuff )

The Rhythm Section is ' self amplified ' ( Rhodes, Guitar, EBass ) with Drums and Percussions.

Did I say they play ( too ) loud ?

So, given the fact that :

We wont be able to get each member a microphone
We need one mike in front for the soloists

We need to equalize the Rhythm Section ( Drums and Perc / amplified instruments )

We need to have some feedback ( especially the rear row needs to hear the front row )

What kind of set -up would be optimum ?


I was thinking of having - a minima - :

one over-head to catch the saxes sound and relay it at the rear for the trumpets can hear them.

one monitor for the soloist(s) to hear himself

one other monitor for the Rhythm to hear the soloist


you see, I know near nothing.... just what came to my mind as I represent myself in the different sections.

Thanks for your help

Best

JiCe

[JVL]

hello
this sounds ok, and i'll add that most of the time, this configuration is the best one, due to unqualified sound technicians unable to do a good sound and mix.
So, playing almost acoustically will avoid a lot of issues.

in november, we did a concert in big band with Bobby Shew, and except the pianist and contrebassist, he was the only one with a mic. It was perfect like that, we could hear oneother.

best

[PC]

I really like it when we have just overhead microphones, two for saxes and maybe two for the bones (capturing the trumpets as well). The rhythm section usually has the bass and piano amplified, maybe drums with overhead and bass drum, the guitar with own amplifier.

The trend is always to overdo it when we have 20 individual mics and it is almost inevitably counter-productive. Let's face it, people coming to hear Jazz are the same category of Classical concert-goers, really attentive to the music and sound connaisseurs. It is offending for them to blare the music at 140 dB, especially at smaller venues. For us in the band, playing at moderate levels mean we blend better and hear each other just fine, letting us also vary the sound palette as we go.

Cheers,
Pierre

[Seymor B Fudd]

[zaferis]

This is NOT "bad news".. IMO is good news-providing you can convince the bass player to turn down (to be subtle, felt not heard) and likewise with the drummer. Keep it soft and undercontrol. Then the wind players can and will have to listen and play musically (with dynamics) not just blowing your brains out.
if you can convince the group that it's a good thing, approach it as a positive, and a chance to show off their musical skills, it could be a very positive experience AND hopefully something that you'll do more of.
IMO this takes the musicality out of the hands of the Sound Tech and puts it back under the control of the players.
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[Speed]

When you say "big band" I assume you are talking about a traditional big band with trumpet, trombone and sax sections, rather than a "horn band" like Chicago, Tower of Power, etc. It's one thing to mic a "horn section" with a trumpet, bone and a couple of saxes. It's quite a different thing to mic a true "big band."

I have heard Wynton Marsalis and the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra in a local venue with 800 or so seats on three different occasions. The only mic near the horns was one for Wynton to use when he announced the songs. In other words, not a single wind instrument was mic'd, nor were there any overheads.

I could not see a mic on the bass or the piano, nor cables running from them, but it's hard to believe that there was not some sound reinforcement on them.

The band definitely filled the hall with sound.

I later spoke with the venue's staff sound engineer, who is very competent. He said that the first time they played that venue, the soundman who travels with the JLCO originally set up mics for everybody, but at sound check he determined they were unnecessary, so he took them down. The next two times they played there, they didn't even unpack their mics.

Unless this gig requires you to fill a hall larger than the 800+ seat, three seating level, concert hall where I saw JCLO, I suggest that volume discipline from the rhythm section, rather than PA gear, will solve your problem.

If I were in your situation, I would sit down with the rhythm section and have a heart to heart talk, explaining to them that if they share your goal of having the BAND sound good, they need to moderate their volume levels. If they don't share that goal with you, you probably need to start looking for another band, or at least another rhythm section. The drummer (assuming he's not playing an electronic kit) is the only one of them who does not have complete control over his volume with a turn of a knob.

If you play with electric musicians - as many of us do, at least from time to time - we have to deal with this problem. There is almost always at least one musician who "can't hear himself" and cranks up his amp. I have found that a diplomatic conversation with the offending party frequently will solve the problem.

Put it to them like this: the problem is that the electric instruments are WAY louder than the horns, so the sound of the band is unbalanced, and therefore, bad. There are limited options to solve the problem. Either the band can invest in SEVERAL THOUSAND DOLLARS of sound gear; or you can commit to rent appropriate PA gear for each gig. Whichever of those options you choose, then you are going to need and hire at least one competent sound engineer (and if you really do it right, you'd hire two - one to run the front of house system and another to mix the monitors); or the rhythm section can turn their volume down. My experience is that sound engineers who know how to mix horns are few and far between, and therefore can demand premium compensation.

There really are not any other options.

Assuming you are successful in convincing the rhythm section to moderate their volume, you can put a mic up for a soloist from the horn section to use when he/she plays a solo.

Take care,
Marc Speed

[trane1959]

keep acoustic music acoustic. At least as acoustic as possible.
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EARL GARDNER - 4 LIFE!!!!!!

[jazztrumpetbill]

I play in a big band. During our concerts, we have a mic for soloists. That is it. You should not need any more amplification.
_________________
Bill

Bb Burbank Benge L
Bb Schilke B1
Olds Silverstar Flugel
King Silvertone Cornet

[kehaulani]

IMO micing is arbitrary. Plenty of excellent musical directors have differing opinions. And it also depends on the acoustic circumstances. I start with no micing in the winds and use amplification, if appropriate, of the rhythm from its own, respective, sources.

A step up is to use two omnidirectional, overhead mics out front, solo mic and self-enhanced amplification from the rhythm, as before. Sometimes rhythm also goes through the sound board and is mixed with the wind mics. In some circumstances, I mic everyone and mix in the sound board as well as having monitors.

BTW, in pop bands, everyone is miced, has both monitors and out-front sound with a sound man.

Like I said, circumstances.

Caveat: I have concertized and toured with mixed ensembles for over half a century. Good luck.
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Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
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[MusicByThePound]

I too am in the camp that says less sound reinforcement is better for big band and agree with most of the points made.

My big reason against is that it is so hard to do right - you do need to mic everyone for any hope of a balanced sound then need to find a big band experienced sound engineer, with lots of equipment, who would know how to balance all the instruments.

Go with less mics, what happens is you only hear the instrument nearest to the mic. So if you put mics in front of your 3 lead players - you lose the section sound. Put mics between 1-2 and 3-4 to capture section - get lots of ambient noise and inner voices. Same with overhead mics.

Got a big gig in a big place - obviously need reinforcement and hopefully getting paid enough to hire someone to do it right. The rest of the time I think the benefits to the musicality of playing acoustically outweigh the negative of bad sound.

No one listens but I try to tell the rhythm section to play with a volume that matches the volume of the horns and not to set their volume based on reaching the last row of the hall. For the electric instruments not to dictate the volume of the horns.

Last thing - you know you are in trouble with a new sound man when he shows up to a big band gig and first thing he does is mic up the drumset....

[gchun01]

I'd opt for the less is better. (each example adds more complexity)

1. One mic up front for solos and MC.

2. One mic up front for solos and MC. Add one mic in the trumpet section, trombone section and sax section to be used ONLY for solos.

3. One mic up front for solos and MC. Add one mic in the trumpet section, trombone section to be used ONLY for solos. Mic all the saxes: use the mics for solos and/or add a bit of presence for the sax section if the brass is overpowering. Positioned just right, they can provide for brass bleed when playing in large venues. Sometimes this works better than close micing as it has more a natural blend.

4. The only time I'd mic EVERY instrument thru the entire gig is for broadcast (or recording) or a large park/stadium type gig. In that case, you need to get a specialist that really knows what they're doing and is familiar with this genre of music. I've heard more bad mixes than good ones.

[jicetp]

Gig is over.

As suggested, we actually did use only one mike for the upfront soloist.
Rhythm section got their own amps.

Things went quite well though :

Solist ans Sax section were not always heard from the back ( trumpet section )

Sound/Light guy had no power to balance ensemble since the Rhythm was on its own volume-wise, and he had no way to powet the blowers up



Thanks for your help

And best wishes for 2019

JiCe

[Speed]

I have been fortunate to work with some very competent sound engineers; however, one thing they HATE to do is to tell a musician to turn down. I can see the diplomatic issue there, but sometimes it is necessary.

I'm glad your gig worked out OK, and I hope it leads to additional ones.

Take care,
Marc Speed

[boog]

A well balanced group is a delight to hear (and to play in!).

I first signed onto a 7 piece R&B group back in the 60's when I was in college (2 tpts, rhythm, lead singer). I was playing with some guys that fortunately had excellent musical taste and sensitivity and favored balance over volume. The guitar players seldom turned their amps up over 2 or 3 (unmiked).

As the next few years came about the "heavy metal" sound came into vogue and the guitar players I gigged with at that time were starting to use Marshall stacks, Kustom 7 foot cabinets, etc., instead of the previously ubiquitous Fender Bassman. Volume levels crept up accordingly, necessitating the use of mics on everybody, with separate sound guys, big speakers, boards, etc. etc. ad nauseum...(yay for the hippies! )

When I got out into real life, gigs for a horn player in the area that I lived in were orchestral, pit gigs, and pick up gigs for touring artists, backup bands, etc. Not many of the venues I played in were heavily mic'd on stage, so I got used to mainly acoustic venues...concert halls, smaller auditoriums, etc. The biggest one I remember playing in was with the old Holiday on Ice show, in an arena, and even then the pick up group was basically unamplified. Life was good again...

When I took over directing the local community big band a few years ago, I was the lead trumpet player, and man, the group was used to really playing loud.

I have made a real effort since becoming the MD to emphasize to the group the concepts of balance, intonation, dynamics...i.e. good musicianship...To be fair, up until that time, the previous directors of the group were also regular playing members, unable to stand in front of the group and listen. I am essentially the first MD to actually be in front of the group, since I no longer occupy a regular chair in the trumpet section.

The emphasis on balance, blend, etc. in the group has resulted and an overall improvement in the musical quality of the group (a mix of pros and hobby players), and satisfaction among the members in the perceived quality of their sound.

As an experiment this past November at our concert, I brought and set up a very small p.a. system consisting of a couple of mic stand mounted Roland cube monitors and a small 4 channel mixing board, mainly to mic the sax soloists, and initially the idea was to also mic one of our players that was doing a vocal solo. She opted to use the house p.a. system instead (a smallish local college auditorium, without a sound guy). In addition, our recordist was really concerned about this separate p.a. and his ability to achieve a balanced recording. As a result, I have decided in my mind to abandon the separate p.a. system (a hassle for setup anyway, since we lack a "roadie"). Once more, we are an "acoustic" group.

I still have to "ride herd" on the drummers and guitarists to keep the balance, though!

[plp]

Good to hear it worked out.

Our band did a gig Thursday for a seasoned citizen's center (so are we) ages ranging from 50's to 80, again, so are we.

We came in to set up, and almost went into shock. Floor to ceiling windows on two walls, low ceiling, and the other two walls led into hallways, total reflection on two sides, total absorption on the other two and the ceiling was a black hole for sound. Did I mention the marble floor?

Having played these type gigs before, we knew to arrange the set list to emphasize ballads and slower tempos, mic everyone for the monitors, and horns play soft as possible into the stands.

Didn't matter, everyone over 70 said we were too loud and too fast, didn't play any Benny Goodman or George Shearing, so we sucked and they left after the first hour.

The rest went great, and we are booked for the last Saturday of the month, for the next 3 months. And they pay quite well, for what we are used to.

Everyone else in the audience said this is exactly the music they want to dance to, and will get the word out to their peers, said while we played to about 150, expect around 300 next time.

The tips were generous.

Anyhoo, for sound, we use Bose stacks behind the band, are both monitors and our speakers, are perfect for this type venue, where you have to keep volumes low but clear. We had a lot of room to work with, so instead of flanking the horn section had us straight out to the audience, once again, micced but playing into the stands.
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Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth

[Tony Scodwell]

I have a story to relate about miking bands. Years ago while I was in the Las Vegas Frontier Hotel house band, Tony Bennett was the attraction. At the rehearsal he kept asking the sound man (named Mike ironically) to pull mikes from different sections a little at a time. Over the course of the two hour rehearsal he had ALL mikes removed including the one he was using. We did the two week gig without any mikes at all and it was amazing to hear how quiet the audience was and how beautifully the band lowered the sound levels. In a Las Vegas showroom that was something of a revelation for us.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

[cheiden]