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Bach 37


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Louise Finch
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Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

B6Bob wrote:
Hi Lou,

Have you tried a fresh set of springs? I just swapped the springs in my Olds Studio. The springs replaced were a about 8.0 mm shorter. Cheap to try. Or, you could try stretching the existing. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck!

Best,

Bob


Hi Bob

Yes, I have, but thanks very much for the suggestion.

All the best

Lou
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Harry Hilgers
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
Harry Hilgers wrote:
This is not really on-topic for the OP (Louise), but this seemed like a good place to drop this.

Sooooooo, for whatever this is worth. I played a seventies Bach 37. It’s a long time ago. So I don’t remember the specific details exept that I loved that horn. It took me through many years.

At some point it developed corrosion pin holes. I must have trashed it as I don’t remember what happened to it.

A few years ago I test-played some new Bach 37’s, but I had trouble with intonation.

So then I tried the Kanstul “37-bell replica” model 1537 and it immediately became a keeper. It has now become my number one battle ax.

Cheers
Harry


Try the new Bachs that are being made. They are a fantastic improvement over some of the horns from that time you mention. I love mine...

The anniversary horn is fantastic as well, and there is a new C trumpet coming out at NAMM.

AL


Al, thanks for your reply.
1. I did try several Bach 37 as recent as 2 years ago. I used the 30 trial periods through the Woodwind and Brass Wind. I had a hard time with their intonation. And that’s putting it mildly.
2. Since I bought the Kanstul P37, I no longer need a Bach.
3. I also just bought a new Yamaha C trumpet. So ALL my horn money had been used up

Cheers,
Harry
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harry Hilgers wrote:
This is not really on-topic for the OP (Louise), but this seemed like a good place to drop this.

Sooooooo, for whatever this is worth. I played a seventies Bach 37. It’s a long time ago. So I don’t remember the specific details exept that I loved that horn. It took me through many years.

At some point it developed corrosion pin holes. I must have trashed it as I don’t remember what happened to it.

A few years ago I test-played some new Bach 37’s, but I had trouble with intonation.

So then I tried the Kanstul “37-bell replica” model 1537 and it immediately became a keeper. It has now become my number one battle ax.

Cheers
Harry


Hi Harry

Thanks very much. I don't think that this is off-topic, and is a good suggestion marred only by Kanstul models not being particularly readily available in the UK.

For example, Phil Parker in London stock a large selection of trumpets overall, but only list the following Kanstul trumpets:

https://www.philparker.biz/index.php/brands/kanstul.html

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

One thing I must of course consider.

I've just been looking at the UK prices for trumpets (I've used Phil Parker in London's website for prices, as they have one of the largest selections. Not many UK retailers stock the Bach Anniversary model, and I believe that Phil Parkers are currently the only one stocking the Yamaha 6335 RC).


Yamaha 6335 RC Commercial - £1750
Yamaha 8335 Xeno IV* - £1895 lacquer/£1995 silver-plate
Bach 180/37 - £2502.50/£2642.50 silver-plate
Yamaha 8335LA - £2526.30 lacquer/£2589.30 silver-plate
Bach LT190S1B Commercial - £3237.50 lacquer/silver, but silver currently has a special price of £2700.00
Bach 190/37 - £3115 silver-plate only listed. Prozone Music (another London retailer) are currently listing it for what they say is a special price of £2922.50.

* Exactly the same trumpet at the Xeno II, but with an updated case. Please see this thread: https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1543429

In a nutshell, a new Bach is going to cost me around £2500 for a 180/37 and £3000 for a 190/37, which is $3208.85 USD and $3850.62 USD respectively, which is obviously a lot of money.

I'm going to have to think about this carefully.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:

Louise!
I´m one of the guys that sold a Bach LT190 1B but the horn in itself in the right hands (lips) is very good. To me, amateur as I am, it simply was too easy to play! Then I found the new Yamaha 6335 RC, half the price with a resistance more convinient for me; extremely versatile and easy playing horn. I wouldn´t say no if I was asked to play Hayden on this horn! This notwithstanding very appropriate for big-/dance- bands.
Like you I´m a brassbander body&soul but I find this horn very compatible with my Getzen 3850 - both very responsive horns but different enough so as to invite you to their different worlds. You just play them not having to adapt - each in their respective settings.


Hi Seymor

Thanks very much. I'd be interested in trying the Yamaha 6335 RC. I'd also like to try the Yamaha 8335 LA.

All the best

Lou


I had the opportunity to test the LA model finding it having a huge sound, being very responsive but, compared to the RC, having less resistance than the RC which then suited me much better. So I suggest that you consider "resistance" an essential variable!! Horn may sound great but could suck the life out of you....
And yes very personal
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Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recommend FIRST getting your current Bach fixed so the valves work properly - so it is workable, either as a keeper, or for resale.

My understanding from what you've written is that you like the way the Bach plays and sounds when the valves work - so if the repair cost is acceptable ...

Jay
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
I recommend FIRST getting your current Bach fixed so the valves work properly - so it is workable, either as a keeper, or for resale.

My understanding from what you've written is that you like the way the Bach plays and sounds when the valves work - so if the repair cost is acceptable ...

Jay


This.

Sounds like Lou likes how her current Bach plays, even a total all three valve rebuild, including shipping to the U.S. if that’s necessary is going to be far less than the cost of a new horn!

Brad
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:

Louise!
I´m one of the guys that sold a Bach LT190 1B but the horn in itself in the right hands (lips) is very good. To me, amateur as I am, it simply was too easy to play! Then I found the new Yamaha 6335 RC, half the price with a resistance more convinient for me; extremely versatile and easy playing horn. I wouldn´t say no if I was asked to play Hayden on this horn! This notwithstanding very appropriate for big-/dance- bands.
Like you I´m a brassbander body&soul but I find this horn very compatible with my Getzen 3850 - both very responsive horns but different enough so as to invite you to their different worlds. You just play them not having to adapt - each in their respective settings.


Hi Seymor

Thanks very much. I'd be interested in trying the Yamaha 6335 RC. I'd also like to try the Yamaha 8335 LA.

All the best

Lou


I had the opportunity to test the LA model finding it having a huge sound, being very responsive but, compared to the RC, having less resistance than the RC which then suited me much better. So I suggest that you consider "resistance" an essential variable!! Horn may sound great but could suck the life out of you....


That’s VERY subjective, of course. Personally, I find more open horns to improve endurance somewhat because they have less tendency to “shut down”, but that’s a very individual thing, some people prefer more resistance, some don’t.

Brad
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
I had the opportunity to test the LA model finding it having a huge sound, being very responsive but, compared to the RC, having less resistance than the RC which then suited me much better. So I suggest that you consider "resistance" an essential variable!! Horn may sound great but could suck the life out of you....

Brad361 wrote:
That’s VERY subjective, of course. Personally, I find more open horns to improve endurance somewhat because they have less tendency to “shut down”, but that’s a very individual thing, some people prefer more resistance, some don’t.

Brad

Very individual. My personal tastes align with Brad’s but that’s what they are - personal tastes.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise, at the time when I bought my Bach 43 new, there really was not much choice in my neck of the woods. Today, however, if I was looking for a new horn, I would consider one of these small workshops that will work with you. Not sure about the price situation in the UK but over here I can get a custom horn for less than a new Bach and even the more expensive Yamahas will be in the same ballpark as a custom horn. Of course I live walking distance from one of these shops but maybe that would also be an option.

Having said this - my flugel seems to be a cousin of your Bach. I love the sound and response, it is easy to switch from trumpet but the valves are sluggish and the overall handling (Couesnon style flugel) is not terribly comfortable, especially on long flugel nights. I will take it to my workshop soon and see what can be done about that. If fixing the valves works out I'll keep it, if not, I'll look for another horn but of course this will be a lot more pricey than "just" getting my horn fixed ...
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I forgot, Brad and CrazyFinn: I like open-ish horns like my Bach 43 which has been opened up considerably by its new 43 leadpipe and combine this with a somewhat less open mouthpiece like a JK USA 5C. Too open, say with a Monette, which I played for a few years, does not work for me. I suspect some of this is lack of sufficient practice time ... so this is a very personal thing, I guess and maybe the OP favors a somewhat less open setup. Very personal indeed.
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Martin Schmidt eXcellence - Curry 7TC
Bach 43GH/43 - GR 65SZ & 65FD
Getzen Eterna C LB - Klier USA 5C
Kühnl & Hoyer Mod. 15 - GR 65FL
Prisma Bb bass trumpet - Couesnon 3
Bremner Sshh
Orchestra, small ensemble & a teacher 😎
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:


I had the opportunity to test the LA model finding it having a huge sound, being very responsive but, compared to the RC, having less resistance than the RC which then suited me much better. So I suggest that you consider "resistance" an essential variable!! Horn may sound great but could suck the life out of you....


Hi Seymor

Thanks very much. I agree that blow resistance is an essential variable.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
I recommend FIRST getting your current Bach fixed so the valves work properly - so it is workable, either as a keeper, or for resale.

Hi Jay

Thanks very much. Ideally that is what I would like to do.


My understanding from what you've written is that you like the way the Bach plays and sounds when the valves work - so if the repair cost is acceptable ...

I do like the way my Bach plays and sounds. I'd still like to try some new Bachs, especially the Anniversary model, to see whether I like them better, but I'd like to compare them to my fixed Bach, so that I can make a good comparison, and I'd like the option of either trading in/selling my Bach to buy a new one of my choice, or keeping it.

Jay

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
I recommend FIRST getting your current Bach fixed so the valves work properly - so it is workable, either as a keeper, or for resale.

My understanding from what you've written is that you like the way the Bach plays and sounds when the valves work - so if the repair cost is acceptable ...

Jay


This.

Sounds like Lou likes how her current Bach plays, even a total all three valve rebuild, including shipping to the U.S. if that’s necessary is going to be far less than the cost of a new horn!

Brad


Hi Brad

Thanks very much.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:

That’s VERY subjective, of course. Personally, I find more open horns to improve endurance somewhat because they have less tendency to “shut down”, but that’s a very individual thing, some people prefer more resistance, some don’t.

Brad


Hi Brad

Thanks very much. I think it really does both ways regarding endurance. My personal experience (admittedly mainly in this regard with cornets) is that if there is too much resistance, it really becomes a problem for me when playing pieces with fast articulations such as marches, loudly. For me the extra resistance makes the fast articulations harder and really tires me out. For me personally, it is a sensation of the resistance trying to force the embouchure open.

I've also experienced the other side of the coin, when there is so little resistance that the embouchure muscles tire to the point of nothing coming out, but that has been from putting a far too open mouthpiece on my Bach 184ML cornet, which is a surprisingly open cornet considering its ML bore and more open than my large bore Yamaha Xeno cornet.

My experience is that the issue with too much resistance causes a temporary loss of endurance, requiring frequent breaks during prolonged high and fast playing to keep on playing. Obviously the resistance issue still needs to be addressed, but the endurance comes back for me. With too little resistance, I've found that the endurance does not come back so easily, as the lip muscles are tired rather than being forced apart.

This is just how I find it.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I've run out of time, so will respond to everyone else later.

Thanks very much for all your replies.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
I had the opportunity to test the LA model finding it having a huge sound, being very responsive but, compared to the RC, having less resistance than the RC which then suited me much better. So I suggest that you consider "resistance" an essential variable!! Horn may sound great but could suck the life out of you....

Brad361 wrote:
That’s VERY subjective, of course. Personally, I find more open horns to improve endurance somewhat because they have less tendency to “shut down”, but that’s a very individual thing, some people prefer more resistance, some don’t.

Brad

Very individual. My personal tastes align with Brad’s but that’s what they are - personal tastes.


Hi Crazy Finn

Thanks very much. I'm not sure whether it is as much a personal taste as an ideal amount of resistance for each of us, but either way I agree that it is personal.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Louise, at the time when I bought my Bach 43 new, there really was not much choice in my neck of the woods. Today, however, if I was looking for a new horn, I would consider one of these small workshops that will work with you. Not sure about the price situation in the UK but over here I can get a custom horn for less than a new Bach and even the more expensive Yamahas will be in the same ballpark as a custom horn. Of course I live walking distance from one of these shops but maybe that would also be an option.

Hi Brassnose

Thanks very much. I am fairly near to Eclipse, Will Spencer and Taylor. Not walking distance, but not too far away. The price situation is probably pretty much as you describe. I'll give this some thought.


Having said this - my flugel seems to be a cousin of your Bach. I love the sound and response, it is easy to switch from trumpet but the valves are sluggish and the overall handling (Couesnon style flugel) is not terribly comfortable, especially on long flugel nights. I will take it to my workshop soon and see what can be done about that. If fixing the valves works out I'll keep it, if not, I'll look for another horn but of course this will be a lot more pricey than "just" getting my horn fixed ...

Hopefully you will be able to get your flugel fixed ok. I reckon my Bach is your flugel's evil cousin, as my 1st valve is not just sluggish but sadly unplayable.

Take care

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I've tried one last thing with my Bach. From our initial telephone conversation, Leigh at Eclipse said that he wondered whether the 1st valve casing had somehow become twisted or under tension, since the valve does not stick until the trumpet has warmed up.

My trumpet has a factory fitted 1st valve trigger mounted on the right hand side of the 1st slide casing. The trigger has a hexagonal nut like on the main water key. I've never touched this before, dissembling the trigger for cleaning by removing the stop rod screws, but I wonder whether it has somehow become over-tightened putting the 1st valve casing under tension, so decided to loosen it.

I'm probably clutching at straws but thought that I'd give it a try.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Many thanks

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the trigger mechanism actually 'clamp onto' the valve casing by being squeezed?

Jay
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The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
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