Mouthpiece suggestions for a Besson Prototype Cornet

[mcjweller]

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, although I couldn't find a specific thread on it. (could be operator error...)

I have an old Besson Prototype cornet that I'd like to get into playing shape, and sooner or later I'll need a mouthpiece. This is the small short shank style where a modern cornet mouthpiece won't fit into the receiver. I should also note this is the old style with the separate mouthpipes that you would change out for different pitches.

The very inside edge diameter of the receiver is 9.22mm or 0.363" so obviously a tapered mouthpiece shank would need to be smaller than that in order to taper out to that diameter.

I'm used to a Bach 3C on a trumpet but have recently moved to a 1 1/4C, I'm looking for recommendations (new or old but if old preferably not rare) of something that will come reasonably close to what I'm used to. Hoping for suggestions...

[Ed Kennedy]

Email Mark Curry. He has all the standard rims and can match your 3C or 1 1/4C.

http://www.currympc.com/index.php?id=49

[scott@95603]

[quote="mcjweller"]Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere, although I couldn't find a specific thread on it. (could be operator error...)

"I have an old Besson Prototype cornet that I'd like to get into playing shape, and sooner or later I'll need a mouthpiece."

I probably have the same cornet manufactured in 1893. My first try was to have a lead pipe made that would allow me to use my 1.5c cornet mouthpiece. My second try was to send the original lead pipe and a suitable 1.5c mouthpiece to Schilke and have them make a mouthpiece for it. The mouthpiece worked out well.
_________________
Schilke B3 '78
Olds Special '56
Kanstul Chicago flugelhorn
English Besson cornet 1893
Kanstul 1530 cornet

[LakeTahoeTrpt]

[Richard III]

Suggestion: Your email should have a subject like Curry 7DC with 1905 Besson cornet shank.

In other words be very specific. Subjects where someone says, "Hey, I got a question," don't usually get answered.

Make sense? Imagine the thousands of emails he gets. And even with that, it may take weeks for him to finally respond. Good luck.
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[iiipopes]

Denis Wick and Stork understand the history of the horn and may be a better fit for tone and intonation than the Curry.
_________________
King Super 20 Trumpet; Sov 921 Cornet
Bach cornet modded to be a 181L clone
Couesnon Flugelhorn and C trumpet

[Richard III]

Or you could buy a vintage mouthpiece:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Besson-15-Cornet-Mouthpiece/233087944987?hash=item36451fc91b:g:ChsAAOSwlINcNnd4
_________________
Richard

King 1130 Flugabone
King 12C mouthpiece

[mcjweller]

Thanks for the ideas!

So...

1) I did contact Denis Wick, his suggestion was to have the receiver reamed to accept a standard cornet shank, that way I would have maximum flexibility of choice. Honestly it's a good idea EXCEPT that this receiver is serial matched to the horn so for history sake, I don't want to alter it. I might however look into having another receiver MADE to replace the original so it can remain unaltered.

2) Yes - I did see those mouthpieces on eBay and I may get one (good reason not to alter the receiver). It's a gamble though because there's no way to know how they compare to what I'm used to until I get one and measure it.

3) I did also contact Mark Curry just today, I hope he has some suggestions because I'm really interested in his vintage series mouthpieces but again the shank size is an issue. But he may have a "ready to go" solution, I can't believe I'm the first person in the world to encounter this

What I was hoping was that someone would say "oh sure just go get bran x model y they're made just for that..." Not sure such a thing exists.

[TKSop]

[mcjweller]

To the last point,

Maybe the better strategy would be for someone who has a curry vintage cornet series mouthpiece (of any size cup/rim) to get a set of calipers and measure the outside diameter of the shank at both ends of the taper.

I have no cornet mouthpieces (modern or old) to compare to, I have a nondescript flugel mouthpiece that fits (but I have no idea what type of taper it has as you have various types on the flugel) and I can't say how well it fits, I can only say you can insert it to about half way up it's shank snugly in the receiver.

I couldn't find specs on the shank size on curry's website, and why would you if they are all standard cornet shank...

[mcjweller]

Update

This gets a bit more strange. The "flugelhorn" mouthpiece I had laying around, which I always assumed was a flugelhorn piece because of the ridiculously deep cup, doesn't seem to add up to the "standard" flugel mouthpieces I've found. This one is only 2.1" long end to end, has a rim and bowl on the outside just like a conventional mouthpiece, but inside it is deep, very deep. Maybe french horn deep..

Anyway, the narrow end of the shank is 0.336" and the wide end 0.385" for a 0.050" taper over an inch.

My receiver opening is 0.369"

It seems a "short shank" cornet mouthpiece will start off at 0.341" for a 0.388" receiver opening and a 0.060" taper. (steeper)

So it seems my receiver is built with a 0.050" taper and is 0.019" smaller than that of a short-shank cornet taper, however a LONG cornet shank matches the taper, and has a 0.385" receiver so my receiver is 0.016" too small for that.

By this math, the standard modern short shank mouthpiece will not fit. The standard long shank will get in there, match the taper but it will only go in 0.466" (where in the same math says it would normally go in 0.733" in a "normal" receiver) so only 63% of the intended insertion.

So I see now why Denis Wick said just ream the receiver to accept the shank, problem is (aside from not wanting to alter the instrument), if I did that there's not much wall left in the receiver at all...paper thin if I were to do that.

I'm basing the "standard" dimensions off another post I found in here searching around, and I am trusting they're right as I have neither modern cornet receivers nor modern cornet mouthpieces to verify!

[Dale Proctor]

I have an 1890 F. Besson London cornet and had the same problem. I was looking more to find an original F. Besson London mouthpiece from the era that would fit and complete the "kit", than I was looking for one to play the cornet with. I finally found one on eBay, an "18", and bought it for 30-something bucks. Its tiny shank fits the receiver(s) perfectly, but the cup, while extremely deep and funnel-shaped, is also very narrow. It has a wonderful, vintage sound, but is too small for me to actually play much of anything on.

I said all that to let you know that original mouthpieces are out there and aren't too expensive, but will likely be too small for you, too. I wouldn't modify a piece of history either, so having Mark Curry make one with your choice of cup and a small shank is probably your best bet. His mouthpieces are great, BTW.
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[mcjweller]

1890 - that must be nice!

I'm going to play mine quite a bit, and it seems to me now that I have some numbers, that the best solution (cost aside) would be to have a separate receiver that will accept modern mouthpiece shanks. Then I'm not married to any one custom mouthpiece.

My company has an engineering branch so I'm going to bribe the guys with good food and beer to make a solidworks 3D model of the existing receiver, and then "scale it up" where it needs to in order to taper up to a larger opening (and therefore be a slightly larger diameter overall).

Then I'll just get it machined with the correct internal (and external) tapers including where the receiver enters the leadpipe). That way it can still look reasonably "right" despite being completely new and slightly larger diameter overall.

Fun. This may take a while, but I will eventually come back and advise how I made out. Brass isn't cheap so I'd like to be real sure before I cut

[scott@95603]

The mouthpiece from my 1893 English Besson & Co. Prototype cornet is an English Besson & Co. Prototype cornet mouthpiece. As best I can tell it has an overall length of 2.08 inches with a 1.05 inch length shank. The small end of the shank diameter is .332 inches. The large end of the shank diameter is .374 inches.

Schilke made for me a mouthpiece using the Besson receiver and Besson mouthpiece. The measurements of the Schilke mouthpiece are extremely close to the original, except for the overall length which is slightly longer because the Bach rim I requested is much rounder than the rather flat rim of the Besson mouthpiece. At least that is what I think.
_________________
Schilke B3 '78
Olds Special '56
Kanstul Chicago flugelhorn
English Besson cornet 1893
Kanstul 1530 cornet

[mcjweller]

I promised I'd follow up so here it is!

1) I can totally have a new receiver made. But, set ups and machining time will be pretty steep because things like tapers need to be tight tolerance.

2) Another option is to look at exising parts out there and modify to suit. I'm actually considering getting a flugelhorn receiver (if I can find one with a 0.050" taper) and modify it to suit. It would need to be modified in length at the taper end as well as the back end, and have a larger tapered collar added.

The real challenge seems to be in finding tubing of the correct ID and OD. Most available tubing is 0.014" wall meaning I can get the right inside diameter but be very thin and flimsy compared to the original, if I did that I would have to buy a cornet receiver to solder on to get the taper, and it would still be thin.

3) My 3rd option is to find another old besson receiver and do as Denis Wick suggested...ream it out.

If there are any flugel players out there who want to measure their receivers inside and outside diameters at the instrument end, and at the mouthpiece end...and for that matter the shank length, and smallest and largest shank diameter on the mating mouthpiece, that may help also (but not if its a "french" taper!)

[mcjweller]

delano,

Would you mind grabbing a set of calipers and measuring the smallest outside diameter on that Yamaha shank, along with the overall length of the shank and the largest diameter at the other end?

In deeper examination, this receiver may have been "reemed" already through other people jamming more modern mouthpieces into it. So while it's not the size as a modern standard receiver, it seems its not as it was originally, either.

Where I live I do not have access to mouthpieces...cornet mouthpieces are special order only regardless of the make. So I can't see myself buying all sorts just to test fit, I would be indebted to specific measurements along with the make/model that anyone is willing to provide.

Thanks!!!

[delano]

I just deleted my post. I was forgotten that I own an old Besson Prototype Class A cornet myself, one with a leadpipe like a flugelhorn. I tried the Yamaha 14E in it and though it has a thinner shank than a Wick or Curry it will not fit in the Besson.

[delano]

The Yamaha's short shank mp's are really tiny mouthpieces.
Measurements:
total length: 55 mm (2.165 inch)
shank length: 27 mm (1.06 inch)
shank beginning os diameter: 8.5 mm (0.335 inch)
shank os diameter at receiver entrance: 9.5 mm (0.374 inch)
largest os shank diameter: 10 mm (0.394 inch).

N.B. I don't own a 16E but I own a 14E and a 7C and both have the same measurements.

[delano]

Another option: my Besson Prototype is for parts only (not playable). I have the removable leadpipe (like a flugel leadpipe with the two knobs) which I suppose yours also has. It is 85.5 mm long and has an outside diameter (where it fits in the cornet) of 11.3 mm. If yours is the same you can have mine for free to modify it. My Yamaha 14E ss mp inserts in it for about 11 mm. My Wick and Curry short shank mouthpieces don't fit at all in it.
The Yamaha short shank pieces are great BTW.