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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:14 am    Post subject: Resistance Reply with quote

"Resistance" is a much misunderstood concept among players and teachers.

It seems to be widely believed that resistance controls or "creates" air pressure.

Resistance does not "create" air pressure (compression). When playing a tone there are two major resistances that are always present. 1. the aperture and 2. the instrument. Also, it is obvious that these resistances have a particular order in the flow path. The air flows through the aperture, then the instrument.

Each of these are sufficient resistance such that the lung air pressure exists in the oral space. Pressure is determined by the lung air pressure state and is controlled by the exhalation effort, or the inhalation effort.

Any change in resistance will not increase the air pressure but it will change the flow of air. The greater the resistance the less the flow for a given air pressure.

The relationship is:

Air flow = Air pressure/resistance

The ONLY way to increase the air pressure is by increasing the blowing action.

However from an air power perspective. The resistance that we "blow against" that is related to sound is the resistance in the instrument only. The resistance of the aperture is a necessary evil, and it reduces efficiency.

That is a major reason why higher pitches generally require more air pressure to play at a constant loudness. (And not the only reason) But the air pressure is created by the blowing effort, not the resistance.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: Resistance Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:

...
Resistance does not "create" air pressure (compression). ...

--------------------------------------
This is an example of why good word choice and complete explanations are useful. A reader might believe that the 'written words' were intended to be precise and accurate, but the writer was confident that everyone would 'know what I mean'.

Written words are very important when giving instructions about 'what to do physically'. And there should be a correlation between the 'goal that is desired', and the 'how to do it'.

Jay
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Pete
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edited

I intended to explore the subject in a different thread rather than go too far off topic in another.

Here also is someone who is confusing regarding air pressure and resistance (among other things):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_zYNudrpaY&feature=youtu.be
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brassmusician
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Different but related topic - I often read or hear advice given that a player must compress the air in their lungs and/or oral cavity. This puzzles me because I don't think the human body is capable of doing this. Exhaling more forcefully yes but compressing the air? Would you agree Kalijah?
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The term "compression" is something that I also find problematic. Since really the energy density, or that is, the air pressure, is what we are aiming to increase with blowing effort. The reduction of specific volume with increasing pressure is relatively small but it is in play. The maximum air pressure we can generate is 1 to 2 psig depending on the blowing strength of the individual. This relates to roughly about a 5 to 10 percent reduction in specific volume I think. But this is not something that is easily felt. Since the reduction is so small the air "feels" incompressible. Especially since we play usually at a fraction of maximum pressure.
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Resistance is futile.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darryl,

You speak so confidently, and use a scientific vocabulary in order to justify your explanations, but I actually think you are wrong on several counts.

Your physics are correct in general of course. But the relation and understanding of their application when it comes to trumpet playing is not right.

I also believe your understanding of human biology is lacking, which leads to further flaws within your explanations.

There have been several documents published by physicists which contradict the understanding you put across.

First point: 'the instrument creates all the resistance we need'. Clearly this is wrong Darryl, anyone here can disprove this by simply opening their aperture as large as possible (or simply putting their mouth around the mouthpiece) and blowing out hard. Not a lot of resistance there methinks....

Second point: 'resistance does not create air pressure'. No, without a so-called 'blowing action' then there is, by definition no resistance either. However, this resistance is an essential part of raising the air pressure. Without resistance we, as human beings, are not able to sufficiently raise the air pressure high enough to cause the high frequency vibrations we are looking for. Again, everyone can try this, without any internal action (no aperture, tongue arch, throat closing) try to blow a stream of highly compressed air. You'll find it is not possible. In fact, you'll empty your lungs very quickly and without any significant force on the air at all. You can even try this down the trumpet (point 1) and you'll see that the apparent 'resistance' of the trumpet will do little to help you again.

Third point: surely you can see how real-life players disprove your points. If all we needed to play high was 1) the natural resistance of the instrument and 2) increasing the blowing action, then I would expect all well-practiced players to have a similar, great range. Anyone here who was taught, or simply spent a lot of time around trumpet players, knows it cannot be that simple as the fluctuations in this area of playing are enormous. There are many further factors at play here.

<<Deleted by Moderators -- debate the post, do not attack the person.>>

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mm55
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
There have been several documents published by physicists which contradict the understanding you put across.

Can you cite these documents, rather than simply mentioning them?
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Show us the documents you are referring to.

Quote:
First point: 'the instrument creates all the resistance we need'.


What you just typed in quotes is not what I wrote. So you are arguing a point I did not make.

Quote:
Clearly this is wrong Darryl, anyone here can disprove this by simply opening their aperture as large as possible (or simply putting their mouth around the mouthpiece) and blowing out hard. Not a lot of resistance there methinks....


And it is obvious you don't understand the concept of acoustic impedance and how it contributes to the behavior of the instrument when we play a tone. I am referring to the activity of producing a tone on the instrument at an instrument resonance. Not simply blowing air into the instrument.

But even in that case, there is sufficient flow resistance, mostly from the mouthpiece throat, such that lung air pressure exists in the oral space. And yes, the flow is much higher than actually playing a tone.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Yes. Show us the documents you are referring to.

Quote:
First point: 'the instrument creates all the resistance we need'.


What you just typed in quotes is not what I wrote. So you are arguing a point I did not make.

Quote:
Clearly this is wrong Darryl, anyone here can disprove this by simply opening their aperture as large as possible (or simply putting their mouth around the mouthpiece) and blowing out hard. Not a lot of resistance there methinks....


And it is obvious you don't understand the concept of acoustic impedance and how it contributes to the behavior of the instrument when we play a tone. I am referring to the activity of producing a tone on the instrument at an instrument resonance. Not simply blowing air into the instrument.

But even in that case, there is sufficient flow resistance, mostly from the mouthpiece throat, such that lung air pressure exists in the oral space. And yes, the flow is much higher than actually playing a tone.


Here are two sets of sources I believe contradict your statements.

https://www.smithwatkins.com/library/technical-papers.html

http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html

Please compare your original answer with the one you have now given.

kalijah wrote:
However from an air power perspective. The resistance that we "blow against" that is related to sound is the resistance in the instrument only. The resistance of the aperture is a necessary evil, and it reduces efficiency.


kalijah wrote:
And it is obvious you don't understand the concept of acoustic impedance and how it contributes to the behavior of the instrument when we play a tone. I am referring to the activity of producing a tone on the instrument at an instrument resonance. Not simply blowing air into the instrument.


Once I supplied an example to disprove your statement that the instrument is the only point of necessary resistance, you then seek to turn your answer around and begin saying 'I am referring to the activity of producing a tone...' etc. No consistency to your argument.

Once again, neither you nor your friend mm55 have offered any proper answer to my points.

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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The resistance that is produced by the lip aperture does 2 primary functions -
1) it provides a flexible 'reed' surface that is capable of vibrating at various frequencies.
2) it provides some control of the air-flow that activates the reed function.

Jay
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mm55
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
http://newt.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html
... in which the word "resistance" does not even appear.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:
https://www.smithwatkins.com/library/technical-papers.html
... which is not a citation of any document, but rather a link to a list of various documents. Is there a specific document you'd like to cite?

I asked if you can cite any of the documents that you mention, and so far, you have not done so.
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Last edited by mm55 on Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Resistance Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:

...
When playing a tone there are two major resistances that are always present. 1. the aperture and 2. the instrument.
...
Each of these are sufficient resistance such that the lung air pressure exists in the oral space.
...

--------------------------------------------------------------------
My understanding of the above points is that BOTH the aperture and instrument provide SOME resistance to air flow, and the resistance from either of those (however small) is sufficient to allow SOME increase in air pressure in the oral space.

Jay
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tone it down guys. You can argue the content without attacking the poster.
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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don Herman rev2 wrote:
Tone it down guys. You can argue the content without attacking the poster.


So you choose to simply delete my reply?

I answered all the questions that had been posed and my remarks were hardly offensive?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't you know that there's only one self-proclaimed scientific expert on here?
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LSOfanboy wrote:

Quote:
Once I supplied an example to disprove your statement that the instrument is the only point of necessary resistance, you then seek to turn your answer around and begin saying 'I am referring to the activity of producing a tone...' etc. No consistency to your argument.


You are still attempting to argue points that I did not make. I did not "turn my answer around and begin saying" ANYTHING. I made it clear from the first post that I was referring to the activity of playing the instrument. (YOU introduced the case of blowing into the instrument with no aperture. Open mouth, etc.) I also made it clear that the instrument AND the aperture contribute the resistance we blow against.

As I wrote in my original post:
Quote:
When playing a tone there are two major resistances that are always present. 1. the aperture and 2. the instrument.


The aperture IS required (I never claimed otherwise) and it's posture controls the pitch of tone played. It also contributes resistance.

The existence of the aperture (which we all agree is necessary) and the existence of tone in the instrument are the dominant resistances when playing a tone.

However, increasing the resistance of the aperture does not further increase the blowing pressure. Only increasing the action of blowing air by the exhalation apparatus can increase the air pressure at this point.
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Last edited by kalijah on Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay wrote:
Quote:
My understanding of the above points is that BOTH the aperture and instrument provide SOME resistance to air flow, and the resistance from either of those (however small) is sufficient to allow SOME increase in air pressure in the oral space.


Not exactly. But close.

When the resistance of the aperture plus instrument (while playing a tone) are significantly dominant compared to the resistance of the airway from the lungs to the oral space, then increasing the aperture resistance will not further increase the pressure that the lungs are providing.

Once the aperture and instrument tone exist, the ONLY way to increase the intra-oral pressure bearing on the aperture is to increase the blowing action.

If one holds the blowing effort constant and you then increase the aperture resistance, then the air flow will reduce proportionally.

As for the tongue arch, it is yet another resistance, especially if it is VERY pronounced. (As in almost "hissing") It then will reduce the air pressure available to the aperture. It will increase the total resistance of the playing system, and it will therefore reduce the flow. It usually is not a problem but to claim that the tongue arch increases air pressure is false.
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