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Yamaha Xeno II


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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:35 am    Post subject: Yamaha Xeno II Reply with quote

Hi

Cross referencing with my Bach 37 thread, considering the price of a new Bach, I am also considering Yamaha options.

I plan to try Yamaha's new commercial trumpet, the 6335 RC and the 8335LA.

I am however still wondering about other versions of the Xeno II, considering the difference in price between Yamaha and Bach in the UK.

I used to have a 6335HGII, predecessor of the 8335G Xeno I. I never admittedly owned it at the same time as my 8335 Xeno II, but I used it for dance band work and it seemed more commercially orientated that I find my 8335 Xeno II.

Admittedly the Xeno I came in between, but I've played Xeno I's and they played pretty much like the 6335HGII.

Although conventional wisdom would be that a gold brass bell would darken the sound, I'm wondering whether the sound would be bigger and richer and may be more what I have in mind.

Also, I am wondering whether the gold brass bell model would respond quicker. I have a feeling that yellow brass may be supposed to respond quicker, but my memory fails me in this regard.

I am also wondering whether the silver-plated models play differently in both the yellow and gold brass bell options.

In a nut-shell, others seem to find their Yamaha Xenos good for show work and other more commercial settings, and this was the case with the 6335HGII I had previously, but I find my 8335 Xeno II very classically orientated.

Have I been spoilt by a lively Bach 37 in between, or do the other configurations of the Xeno II play differently to the 8335? I've tried and don't like the reversed leadpipe models, so I'm basically looking for a comparison between the 8335, 8335S, 8335G and 8335GS, from someone who has played them all.

Thanks very much

Lou
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Trumpets:
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Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
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Irving
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou I think you should get your Bach fixed and then decide if you want another trumpet. If your Bach is in good shape except for the lst valve then it is fixable. You could even send it to the US (Anderson Silver Plating), and have all of the valves done. You can get a customs exemption from HM customs, since customs was already paid when it entered your country. Once it is fixed then you might not want another horn.

If you do send it to the US, mark " American Goods Returned" so that they don't try and hit you with taxes when it enters the US.

BTW, just in case you don't I would recommend that you oil your valves once a day, even if they don't need oil. Your valves will last longer if you do.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
Lou I think you should get your Bach fixed and then decide if you want another trumpet. If your Bach is in good shape except for the lst valve then it is fixable. You could even send it to the US (Anderson Silver Plating), and have all of the valves done. You can get a customs exemption from HM customs, since customs was already paid when it entered your country. Once it is fixed then you might not want another horn.

If you do send it to the US, mark " American Goods Returned" so that they don't try and hit you with taxes when it enters the US.

Hi Irving

Thanks very much for all the above, which is really appreciated.


BTW, just in case you don't I would recommend that you oil your valves once a day, even if they don't need oil. Your valves will last longer if you do.

I do do this, but thanks very much for the good advice.

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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LarsHusum
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find that gold brass sounds darker from soft dynamics until around a good Forte. In louder dynamics I find gold brass to be brighter than yellow brass.
Gold brass does not sound bigger in my opinion. It actually sounds more compact than yellow brass. Because of this, I personally prefer gold brass on large bore instruments, such as the Bach 25G or ytr-8345GII. On ML instruments the sound gets too compact for my taste.
I offen find that gold brass instruments are slightly easier to play than their yellow brass counterparts. This I credit to the more compact sound, which I believe makes it easier for the chops to keep the sound focused.

Plating difference is not so big. Pick the best one.
But I offen find that lacquered instruments are slightly easier to play. This is because of the dampening effect of the lacquer.
Silver plated instruments play broader/bigger with a slightly brighter sound.
But again, the difference in plating is very small.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LarsHusum wrote:
I find that gold brass sounds darker from soft dynamics until around a good Forte. In louder dynamics I find gold brass to be brighter than yellow brass.
Gold brass does not sound bigger in my opinion. It actually sounds more compact than yellow brass. Because of this, I personally prefer gold brass on large bore instruments, such as the Bach 25G or ytr-8345GII. On ML instruments the sound gets too compact for my taste.
I offen find that gold brass instruments are slightly easier to play than their yellow brass counterparts. This I credit to the more compact sound, which I believe makes it easier for the chops to keep the sound focused.

Plating difference is not so big. Pick the best one.
But I offen find that lacquered instruments are slightly easier to play. This is because of the dampening effect of the lacquer.
Silver plated instruments play broader/bigger with a slightly brighter sound.
But again, the difference in plating is very small.


Hi LarsHusum

Thank you very much for your very informative post. I've had a think about this, in regards to my other horns. None of them have gold brass bells, and the three I use for more classical repertoire, Xeno II Bb, Xeno cornet and C trumpet are all in lacquer, whereas the ones I use for more commercial playing have been silver-plated. My Bach 184ML cornet is silver-plated and I've used it for a large range of repertoire including Jazz, my Bach 183 flugel which I use for Jazz ballads is silver-plated, and my Bach 37 is scratch gold plated. Admittedly you say the difference is very small, but I tend to notice very small things. Considering I like my Xeno II in most regards and the Xeno II is 2/3 the price of a new Bach, I think that it is worth finding out if silver-plated would make the difference.

I used my Xeno II for Chicago and An American in Paris selections yesterday, and tried to work out what I don't like about the Xeno for more commercial repertoire, and it is subtle, but I am wondering whether it is more to do with the sound rather than the approach. It will probably be just another factor to rule out, but I think that I will A-B my 8335 Xeno II with a 8335S Xeno II, to experience the difference for myself.

Thanks very much again.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Lou,
Anderson Silver Plating no longer has anyone who refits valves. They still do plating, but the complex, multi-step process of refitting was done by one man who retired last year.
The two sources I know of who can do this are "Dr. Valve" (Steve Winans), and Jim Becker at Osmun Music.

If your valves are that worn, unfortunately, refitting is the only way I know of to solve the problem.
-Lionel
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Hello Lou,
Anderson Silver Plating no longer has anyone who refits valves. They still do plating, but the complex, multi-step process of refitting was done by one man who retired last year.
The two sources I know of who can do this are "Dr. Valve" (Steve Winans), and Jim Becker at Osmun Music.

If your valves are that worn, unfortunately, refitting is the only way I know of to solve the problem.
-Lionel


Hi Lionel

Thank you very much. This is really appreciated.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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Location: Suffolk, England

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Again cross referencing with my Bach 37 thread, I have been looking into other Yamaha options, as in most regards I like my Xeno II.

I have had a look at the specs for the new Yamaha commercial trumpet, and I saw the following:

Plastic valve guides give a more flexible sound whilst the lightweight finger buttons and valve caps not only contribute to the flexibility of the sound but also the additional benefit of a fast response.

I'm wondering about the plastic valve guide part, as I have a spare set of new plastic Yamaha valve guides. I've always found metal valve guides more responsive than plastic on my Bach 37, so this seems a little counter intuitive, but I'm wondering whether it would be worth trying the plastic valve guides on my Xeno II.

What do you think?

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irving wrote:
If you do send it to the US, mark " American Goods Returned" so that they don't try and hit you with taxes when it enters the US

Just an aside, if you have the original receipt, it will go a long way in helping with Customs.

Caveat: I lived in Germany for 20 years and had goods go back and forth to/from the States.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Hello Lou,
Anderson Silver Plating no longer has anyone who refits valves. They still do plating, but the complex, multi-step process of refitting was done by one man who retired last year.
The two sources I know of who can do this are "Dr. Valve" (Steve Winans), and Jim Becker at Osmun Music.

If your valves are that worn, unfortunately, refitting is the only way I know of to solve the problem.
-Lionel


Based on everything Lou has written about her Bach, but of course I have no way of knowing for sure, I think a valve rebuild is probably the only viable solution.

Brad
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Hi

Again cross referencing with my Bach 37 thread, I have been looking into other Yamaha options, as in most regards I like my Xeno II.

I have had a look at the specs for the new Yamaha commercial trumpet, and I saw the following:

Plastic valve guides give a more flexible sound whilst the lightweight finger buttons and valve caps not only contribute to the flexibility of the sound but also the additional benefit of a fast response.

I'm wondering about the plastic valve guide part, as I have a spare set of new plastic Yamaha valve guides. I've always found metal valve guides more responsive than plastic on my Bach 37, so this seems a little counter intuitive, but I'm wondering whether it would be worth trying the plastic valve guides on my Xeno II.

What do you think?

Best wishes

Lou


Since putting them in should take less than a minute, why not?😎

And to further complicate your situation, are you limiting yourself to Yamaha if in fact you decide to try a new horn? I say that not as any criticism of Yamaha, but there are boatloads of other horns out there that you might like.
I have owned both Bach 37s and a Yamaha Xeno (8335 RGS and 6310 and 8310 Z), but I have found other horns that I prefer.

Brad
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Irving wrote:
If you do send it to the US, mark " American Goods Returned" so that they don't try and hit you with taxes when it enters the US

Just an aside, if you have the original receipt, it will go a long way in helping with Customs.

Caveat: I lived in Germany for 20 years and had goods go back and forth to/from the States.


Hi kehaulani

Thanks very much, and a very good suggestion, but although I have the receipt for all my other horns, I haven't got the receipt for this one, as it was unfortunately mislaid years ago in a house move.

I bought it from Leigh at Eclipse, so when I do get him to look at my Bach, I'll see if he has a computer record of the sale, and whether he can produce a replacement receipt.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
yourbrass wrote:
Hello Lou,
Anderson Silver Plating no longer has anyone who refits valves. They still do plating, but the complex, multi-step process of refitting was done by one man who retired last year.
The two sources I know of who can do this are "Dr. Valve" (Steve Winans), and Jim Becker at Osmun Music.

If your valves are that worn, unfortunately, refitting is the only way I know of to solve the problem.
-Lionel


Based on everything Lou has written about her Bach, but of course I have no way of knowing for sure, I think a valve rebuild is probably the only viable solution.

Brad


Hi Brad

Thanks very much, this could be the case.

Take care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Hi

Again cross referencing with my Bach 37 thread, I have been looking into other Yamaha options, as in most regards I like my Xeno II.

I have had a look at the specs for the new Yamaha commercial trumpet, and I saw the following:

Plastic valve guides give a more flexible sound whilst the lightweight finger buttons and valve caps not only contribute to the flexibility of the sound but also the additional benefit of a fast response.

I'm wondering about the plastic valve guide part, as I have a spare set of new plastic Yamaha valve guides. I've always found metal valve guides more responsive than plastic on my Bach 37, so this seems a little counter intuitive, but I'm wondering whether it would be worth trying the plastic valve guides on my Xeno II.

What do you think?

Best wishes

Lou


Hi Brad

Since putting them in should take less than a minute, why not?😎

Very true and I'll give this a try, but I was additionally hoping for opinions on what positive and negative changes this may make.

And to further complicate your situation, are you limiting yourself to Yamaha if in fact you decide to try a new horn? I say that not as any criticism of Yamaha, but there are boatloads of other horns out there that you might like.

No, but Yamaha horns do have a few advantages for me, firstly that apart from the New York and Chicago models, they are a lot cheaper in the UK than Bach. Kanstul models are limited and pretty expensive, Getzen models are also limited. Additionally Yamaha models are more consistent from one example to another, which is advantageous in my opinion if like me, you are probably going to try at home on approval. I'd worry that a retailer would send for example the one Bach 37 for me to try, that everyone who is trying a few in person in the shop and choosing their favourite, rejects as being the worse player. Also my Bach 184ML cornet has had its moments over the years with its valves, but obviously nothing like I've experienced with my Bach 37. I find Yamaha valves to be reliable, and for them overall to be good solid reliable instruments, even if they are not particularly exciting.

I have owned both Bach 37s and a Yamaha Xeno (8335 RGS and 6310 and 8310 Z), but I have found other horns that I prefer.

Thank you.

Brad

Best wishes

Lou

_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Hi

Again cross referencing with my Bach 37 thread, I have been looking into other Yamaha options, as in most regards I like my Xeno II.

I have had a look at the specs for the new Yamaha commercial trumpet, and I saw the following:

Plastic valve guides give a more flexible sound whilst the lightweight finger buttons and valve caps not only contribute to the flexibility of the sound but also the additional benefit of a fast response.

I'm wondering about the plastic valve guide part, as I have a spare set of new plastic Yamaha valve guides. I've always found metal valve guides more responsive than plastic on my Bach 37, so this seems a little counter intuitive, but I'm wondering whether it would be worth trying the plastic valve guides on my Xeno II.

What do you think?

Best wishes

Lou


Since putting them in should take less than a minute, why not?😎

Brad


Hi

I got out my Yamaha plastic valve guides. They are used rather than new ones, so I must have the new ones in my Xeno cornet at some time. I put the plastic valve guide in the 1st piston and it felt very tight when inserting it in the casing. I had a look at the valve guide tabs and the ones on the plastic ones are quite a bit larger. I'm sure that this is usual, and was also the case when I tried plastic valve guides in my Bach, but I don't want to take any risks considering the valve issues I've had with my Bach, since my Xeno II valves are not any issue at all. I've therefore given up on this idea. It was probably pointless anyhow.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have done the same thing, if they didn’t fit correctly, why take any chances!

Brad
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nicklambo700
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 6335RC I feel like would fit the bill. It’s economically priced, and seems like it has the specs for the right job. Also, was informed today by a Yamaha advisor that the Bobby Shew 8310Z just got a second generation that was launched today at NAAM. 8310Z II. Might be worth checking out.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicklambo700 wrote:
The 6335RC I feel like would fit the bill. It’s economically priced, and seems like it has the specs for the right job. Also, was informed today by a Yamaha advisor that the Bobby Shew 8310Z just got a second generation that was launched today at NAAM. 8310Z II. Might be worth checking out.


Hi nicklambo700

Thanks very much, I'll give this some thought.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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Patrizio
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Lou,

The Yamaha 6335 RC sounds interesting to me...

Here is the 8310z second generation!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2u2jZ_Ocxk
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrizio wrote:
Hello Lou,

The Yamaha 6335 RC sounds interesting to me...

Here is the 8310z second generation!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2u2jZ_Ocxk


Hi Patrizio

Thanks very much. I'll check both these out.

Best wishes

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
Kanstul F Besson C
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
- Differing Kanstul Custom 3Cs
- Denis Wick 4B underpart/my 3C rim
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