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A question for those who had their favorite horn’s valves


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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:24 pm    Post subject: A question for those who had their favorite horn’s valves Reply with quote

This is a question for those who had their favorite horn’s valves refitted.

Specifically I am not looking for those who purchased a project horn and had the valves redone. I am looking for people who knew the horn well enough before and after to quantify the impact.

Since there seems to be so much cause and effect between horn mods and repairs, I wonder if anyone has noticed a negative change to one of their go to horns after the valves were rebuilt.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Benge 5X, Olds Flugel, NY Calicchio. NO complaints, aways an improvement. If your valves are so loose as to be leaking the difference in efficiency and improved slotting is striking. One caveat, make sure that the shop shields the ports so you don't lose a few thousanths of bore size through the valves from the plating. I recommend Dr. Valve or JIm Becker at Osmun. they know what they are doing. Also Rich Ita in the Atlanta area.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had the valves of only one horn redone: My Burbank Benge 3X. I bought the horn new in 1966 and played it as my main horn for the next 35 or so years. During that time period I had it re-silver plated probably 4 or 5 times (I'm very hard on silver plating) and had the leadpipe replaced as many times due to red rot. By the end of this time period the nickel plating on the valves was "orange peeling" and coming off in hunks.

I decided to have the valves redone and have the horn gold plated. It was sent to Anderson. When it came back the difference was awesome. The horn was much easier to play and much more responsive. It was a night and day difference, like going from a Model T Ford to an Indianapolis race car.

Over a long period of time like that you just don't realize how far things have deteriorated because it happens so slowly. Having the valves redone was an excellent investment.
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JeffM729
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My LA Olds Recording trumpet was much improved after Anderson did a valve job, especially in the lower register. Only positives to report.
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Randall Nelson
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the valves on my early 1948 LA Olds Ambassador redone. I know this likely does not make $$ sense but was more in the sense of taking care of an old friend than anything for increasing(?) the value of the horn.

Dan Oberloh in Seattle had the valves replated by Anderson but he did the final fitting of the valves. Valves now feel like my Getzen and Lawler horns and that says a lot. The Ambassador still sounds like an Ambassador ...but so much easier to play. Definitely worth doing.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
Benge 5X, Olds Flugel, NY Calicchio. NO complaints, aways an improvement. If your valves are so loose as to be leaking the difference in efficiency and improved slotting is striking. One caveat, make sure that the shop shields the ports so you don't lose a few thousanths of bore size through the valves from the plating. I recommend Dr. Valve or JIm Becker at Osmun. they know what they are doing. Also Rich Ita in the Atlanta area.
+1...horns in my playing rotation that have had valve plating done:
Bach 37, Bach Vindabona, Benge 2x+, 3x, and two 5x's, Marcinkiewicz,
and Calicchio. All significant improvements with no negative affects at all.
Work done by Steve Winans, Mike DelQuadro, and Jim Becker. No complaints
with any of them! I enjoy offering my repeat business to them and mainly
depended on their current workload. No difference in "feel" either, all equal.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach Strad 43 and LA Benge 3X+: both rebuilt by Steve Winans, in both cases the only changes I noticed afterwards were MUCH better valve action. I would have to think though that tighter, rebuilt valves cost only make a horn play better.

Brad
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Last edited by Brad361 on Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dstdenis
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bach 37 refitted by Rich Ita. All positive: the valves worked great, and the horn felt like it responded better, which I attributed to the tighter valves.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing but good to say. The horn sounded better with better, more solid intonation.

If you think yours sounds worse, it's more likely that you're getting used to it all over again and the compensations you used to perform you do not need to do any more.

Spend more time with it. Play softly and work your way up. You might be overnlowing now to compensate for something that isn't there any more.

Tom
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reasoning behind this question has nothing to do with my personal horns. I am happy with all of mine that I regularly play.

I was thinking about Louise Finch's valve issues with the Bach she really likes and wondering if the way the horn played would be negatively affected if the valves were redone.

After all, if the tightness of the spit valve screw can affect the horn's response negatively and positively, surely the stresses put on the horn while redoing the valves could also affect how the horn responds.

But... based on the replies here it appears that people haven't experienced a negative effect.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
The reasoning behind this question has nothing to do with my personal horns. I am happy with all of mine that I regularly play.

I was thinking about Louise Finch's valve issues with the Bach she really likes and wondering if the way the horn played would be negatively affected if the valves were redone.

After all, if the tightness of the spit valve screw can affect the horn's response negatively and positively, surely the stresses put on the horn while redoing the valves could also affect how the horn responds.

But... based on the replies here it appears that people haven't experienced a negative effect.


Ten years ago, I was trying to bring a trumpet to market under the Byron Autrey brand name. We talked about many things over that year or so. We talked what he did when he refitted valve pistons. One of the pitfalls he mentioned, that may not be pertinent to Louise' Bach, but was pretty critical for Benge horns, was that the valve casings were swaged round, rather than lapped. The reason is that sometimes enough material would be removed during lapping that the bottom threads of the casing would be cut off from the inside.

Apart from that hypothetical, when I had trouble (a lot like Lou's) with my 1st valve on my 5X, Zig Kanstul suggested that I need only pay for the one valve to be rebuilt. If I liked how it worked, I could get the others done at a different time. I took that recommendation and it didn't go well. I eventually had Kanstul rebuild all three and they ended up the best set of valves I've ever experienced. I also had them refit all of the slides at the same time. The result was the best mechanics of any horn I've ever held.

I'm told that Mark Kanstul is the valve wizard there, but since he is CEO now, I doubt he would take time to do any rebuilds now.

I don't know if it was Byron or Flip, but I think it was one of them told me that the inside surfaces of the piston ports don't receive enough nickel to change the ID significantly, even if they are not masked off. Mine were left open when they were plated and had a lovely satin nickel look when it was done. I didn't notice any difference in resistance, but the improvement in resonance, slotting, etc., was fantastic!
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Last edited by shofarguy on Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
The reasoning behind this question has nothing to do with my personal horns. I am happy with all of mine that I regularly play.

I was thinking about Louise Finch's valve issues with the Bach she really likes and wondering if the way the horn played would be negatively affected if the valves were redone.

After all, if the tightness of the spit valve screw can affect the horn's response negatively and positively, surely the stresses put on the horn while redoing the valves could also affect how the horn responds.

But... based on the replies here it appears that people haven't experienced a negative effect.


Hi LittleRusty

Thank you very much for thinking about the issues which I am experiencing with my Bach, and starting this thread to ask this question, which is really appreciated.

Best wishes

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:
The reasoning behind this question has nothing to do with my personal horns. I am happy with all of mine that I regularly play.

I was thinking about Louise Finch's valve issues with the Bach she really likes and wondering if the way the horn played would be negatively affected if the valves were redone.

After all, if the tightness of the spit valve screw can affect the horn's response negatively and positively, surely the stresses put on the horn while redoing the valves could also affect how the horn responds.

But... based on the replies here it appears that people haven't experienced a negative effect.


Ten years ago, I was trying to bring a trumpet to market under the Byron Autrey brand name. We talked about many things over that year or so. We talked what he did when he refitted valve pistons. One of the pitfalls he mentioned, that may not be pertinent to Louise' Bach, but was pretty critical for Benge horns, was that the valve casings were swaged round, rather than lapped. The reason is that sometimes enough material would be removed during lapping that the bottom threads of the casing would be cut off from the inside.

Apart from that hypothetical, when I had trouble (a lot like Lou's) with my 1st valve on my 5X, Zig Kanstul suggested that I need only pay for the one valve to be rebuilt. If I liked how it worked, I could get the others done at a different time. I took that recommendation and it didn't go well. I eventually had Kanstul rebuild all three and they ended up the best set of valves I've ever experienced. I also had them refit all of the slides at the same time. The result was the best mechanics of any horn I've ever held.

I'm told that Mark Kanstul is the valve wizard there, but since he is CEO now, I doubt he would take time to do any rebuilds now.

I don't know if it was Byron or Flip, but I think it was one of them told me that the inside surfaces of the piston ports don't receive enough nickel to change the ID significantly, even if they are not masked off. Mine were left open when they were plated and had a lovely satin nickel look when it was done. I didn't notice any difference in resistance, but the improvement in resonance, slotting, etc., was fantastic!


Hi Shofarguy

Very interesting, thanks very much.

Best wishes

Lou
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I second Ed Kennedy's opinions and experience - they always play and feel better when a proper refitting is done.

One slight difference I would have is shielding the ports. I think that a trumpet valve such as Olds or Benge, which had plated ports, should be totally plated in nickel, as was originally done.

Now that the man at Anderson is retired, I can share what I observed from his port work. When I'd get a horn back that I'd asked for shielding, I could see that he had used a very fine grinding wheel to remove the nickel coat of the final plating. It was amazing how well it was done, but it wasn't "plugging" per se. I know that ASP is really concerned about the cleanliness of their plating baths, so if actual "plugging" of ports was done, it would have to be laboratory clean to satisfy them. I don't know what that technique would be.

As a player, I'm no longer concerned about the potential loss of a few thousandths of an inch on a port - the horn plays so much better with newly refitted valves, you'll never notice, it's like a different ax.

-Lionel
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cbtj51
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like others, I had the valves replated on my 1971 Benge 5X at Osmun by Jim Becker after he inspected it. I bought this horn new in 1971, my Freshman year of college. It was my daily player until 2000.

Before:

After:

The horn plays great! I will use Osmun and Jim Becker again if the need arises again!

Hope this helps,

Mike
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An observation, how most of the technicians mentioned have a Schilke connection. I don't think James Becker worked there but his boss, Bob Osmun did. He was known as "Boston Bob." Steve Winans, Rich Ita and myself all worked at the Schilke factory, veterans of the Sunnan honing machine fitting valves on new Schilkes.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
An observation, how most of the technicians mentioned have a Schilke connection. I don't think James Becker worked there but his boss, Bob Osmun did. He was known as "Boston Bob." Steve Winans, Rich Ita and myself all worked at the Schilke factory, veterans of the Sunnan honing machine fitting valves on new Schilkes.


Interesting, I knew you and Steve worked at Schilke, was not aware that Bob Osmun and Rich Ita did as well. Sure says something about the quality of Schilke valves and horns.

Brad
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gchun01
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of Schilke, I had my 1988 Schilke S42 valves redone at the factory. I had some other work done as well, but it came back just like a new horn. Fantastic work.

Aside from the improved physical feel of the valve action, there was a new crispness to how the notes spoke while change valve combinations.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Winans (Dr. Valve) has done 2 trumpets for me and the work only improved them. His turnaround was excellent, I spoke on the phone with him both times before and during the process and there were no surprises. Both were vintage Schilke trumpets I'd been playing on for 25+ years, I still play both. Highest recommendation!
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Retlaw
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am with Craig ...get a quote from Steve. I have had three horns with valves refitted by him and each time the horn was flawless. I would go so far to say each horn played better than new...slick action.. full rich sound and in tune.

Olds Recording... 1934 Selmer Balanced and Martin Committee.
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