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How Do YOU Approach Learning Scales??


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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
It's the seventh degree flatted. In this case, it would be C to Bb.

----------------------------------------
I was confused about that too. At first I didn't recognize the 'b' as meaning 'flatted' because I hadn't seen that notation in the music theory book I use.

And music theory nomenclature sometimes doesn't seem straight forward.
For example, my book (which unfortunately has several misprints) says that a
C7 chord goes from C up to Bb (which is a minor 7th, but it is just 'understood' that way.
And majC7 goes from C to B (which is a major 7th)
A diminished 7th goes from C to A, because the top note of the C7 is lowered 1 half-step.
The term 'diminished major 7th' is not part of the usual terminology.

Trying to learn music theory is more difficult (for me) than reading a chemistry 101 textbook.

Just venting ...
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who uses the term majC7 ? If it's not designated otherwise, then it automatically defaults to a major chord.

C7 implies a C dominant seven type chord. If the chord is minor, then it's notated C min7. Same for Augmented (C Aug7) and a Diminished chord (C dim7).


If it's a major chord with a major 7 it's notated C Maj7.
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
It's the seventh degree flatted. In this case, it would be C to Bb.

----------------------------------------
And music theory nomenclature sometimes doesn't seem straight forward.


That's for sure! Here's generally what I see in my neck of the woods:

C = C Major
C^ (supposed to be a triangle) = C Maj7
C- = C minor
C-7 = C minor 7
C7 = C Dominant 7
C+ = C Aug7
Co (circle is supposed to be up above the 'C') = C dim7
Co (circle would have a slash through it) = C half diminished (aka Cmin7b5)
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the way I first learned but I think it was standardized away from figures/cymbals to more clear text some time ago. Allegedly Jamie Aebersold and a bunch of like minded educators resolved this. I certainly don't think you'd find published music with this nomenclature.
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: How Do YOU Approach Learning Scales?? Reply with quote

mrhappy wrote:
So here’s my questions for those of you that are good at this sort of thing:

When attempting to learn a new scale/ passage or whatever, do you…

Lots of good advice in this thread.

FWIW, I practice about 20 different jazz scales a day, as part of my daily routine. I rotate through all 12 keys, focusing on one key each day. I do all my scales studies from memory.

When learning a new scale or pattern, I probably do some visualization (as the OP suggested). But for me, it's mostly repetition until I can play from memory, play it in all 12 keys, and play variations the scale following certain patterns (there are a few patterns that I apply to most scales I practice, similar to what jhatpro wrote).

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LSOfanboy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apologies if this is too simplistic a reply, but starting very very slowly, evenly and deliberately is my recommendation.Over time the process becomes quicker and easier, but you only reach that stage after hours of very diligent work. If you try and rush through them from the start it will take so much longer for the brain/aural/finger connections to build.

All the best
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A great resource is the virtually endless number of online instructionals, most of them for guitar players. Even if you don’t know a Gibson from a Fender you can still learn a lot from sites like this:

https://www.thejazzguitarsite.com/jazz-guitar-lessons/how-to-improvise-over-major-7th-chords
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani and mrhappy

Thanks for the clarifications about chord & interval notation.

I get quite confused by the way they are notated (and explained) by different sources.

Jay
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
I certainly don't think you'd find published music with this nomenclature.


Agreed... I was just throwing that out there for the 'down and dirty' crowd! Probably stems from when charts were mostly hand written as more of a shorthand style.
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: How Do YOU Approach Learning Scales?? Reply with quote

TrumpetMD wrote:

Lots of good advice in this thread.


Holy Cow YESSS!! Thanks everyone!
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jhatpro wrote:
A great resource is the virtually endless number of online instructionals, most of them for guitar players. Even if you don’t know a Gibson from a Fender you can still learn a lot from sites like this:

https://www.thejazzguitarsite.com/jazz-guitar-lessons/how-to-improvise-over-major-7th-chords


Hey that's a pretty cool site... right to the point! Thanks for the link Jim!
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
kehaulani and mrhappy Thanks for the clarifications about chord & interval notation. I get quite confused by the way they are notated (and explained) by different sources. Jay

Jay, just to take it one more step.

I originally learned the shorthand notation, (triangles, minus and plus signs, etc.). I have found out over the years that, because there are various notation systems that people only know, that writing out the words (Maj=major, Min=minor) is the clearest way for everyone to understand it.

Or to put it in reverse, C+9. What does that mean? C7 with a sharpened 9th or C augmented with a natural 9th? But if you write it out, it is clear. C Aug9, or C7 +9 if that's what you mean.

Most modern published arrangements now use this system.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
... Jay, just to take it one more step. ...

------------------------------
Thanks again!

My resent 'foray' into chords and intervals began a few weeks ago when I was practicing Arban's 'Chord of the Dominant Seventh', and was wondering about why they had that title. And whether the goal of the exercises was to teach any theory about 'Dominant Seventh', or were just 'playing exercises'. Years ago when I did take private lessons, I didn't get any instruction about theory or even 'learn the chords' - just play the notes.

I haven't had formal music theory training, only a very little 'self study attempts' from a basic music theory book that I believe was originally published for the British market - and it's got a few errors (I think) - such as sometimes calling a 7-half-step interval a 'major 5th' rather than a 'perfect 5th' (is that ever done?).

The #53 Arban's exercise begins with a Cmajor triad in the first (and last) measure, but then all the following measures are patterns of triads based on Gmajor with F (instead of F#). I found them fine to play, but unclear about what they had to do with Cmajor (other than flowing nicely), what was 'dominant' about the 7th, confused because the 5th of a chord is called the 'dominant', and wondering why/how the 7th of Gmajor (F#) was changed to F.

I'm not asking for (or expecting) a music theory explanation, I just wanted to let you know how I got 'lost in the weeds' ...

Jay
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dominant Seventh is used to refer to any major triad with a flat seventh added, regardless of key.

A G7 chord in C major is composed of scale degrees G (dominant), B, D F (seventh note up from F). The #53 exercise is covering the Dominant 7 chord for C Major. When you play the exercise for Eb, the Dominant 7 chord will be Bb-D-F-Ab. They all follow this pattern.

Keeping in mind that, in your example, the G in a C Major scale is called the dominant (the fifth degree in any major scale is called the dominant, actually), this is a fairly good explanation I found on the Stack Exchange:

"Early on in common practice music the V7 chord construction was frequently encountered (note I mean the dominant seventh of the current key); over time, the name 'dominant seventh' came to be applied to any major triad with a flattened seventh degree, even when you're not dealing with the dominant of the current tonality.

"C7 is, in the most literal sense, the dominant triad, with an added seventh, in the key of F major. One of the most common uses of the dominant, fifth (V), chord is in a perfect cadence, V->I. Although this is done with just triads, including the seventh of the dominant chord reinforces the finality of the cadence. Over time, the designation of these 'dominant seventh' chords expanded to any (major) chord involving the flattened seventh degree."
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For starters, if you're in the Key of C and you're playing around with a F natural and the chord revolves around G, you are working out on that key's fifth, or dominant degree/chord.

The use of the term Minor 7th interval refers to the type and degree of an interval. Sometimes music has quick and momentary modulations. So, while it may overall be in C major (G Dominant), it might momentarily modulate.

If it goes, i.e. to F Major, then C becomes that key's dominant. In that case, you could suddenly see a C7 to F Maj7, even though the overall key is C Major. The interval of F to E is a Major 7th and the interval of C to Bb (C7) is, therefore, an interval of a Minor seven.

A Dominant seven chord is a major chord with lowered seventh and the chord is based on the Dominant (5th) degree of a key.

The interval of a Minor 7th is an interval with a lowered seventh.

It gets more complicated, LOL.

Revised.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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mm55
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
The interval of a Dominant 7 is an interval with a lowered seventh.

I can't think of any music theory context where an interval is labeled "Dominant 7". It's called a minor seventh, or less commonly, an augmented sixth. Intervals are not "dominant".
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is right, that it is a minor seventh but I know a lot of pop and jazz musicians who use the term dominant seven, so I include it because there may be those that want to know what it means.

But you're right in that it is an interval of a Minor 7th and the post has been revised, accordingly. Sorry for any ambiguity.
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Last edited by kehaulani on Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
The interval of a Dominant 7 is an interval with a lowered seventh.

mm55 wrote:
I can't think of any music theory context where an interval is labeled "Dominant 7". It's called a minor seventh, or less commonly, an augmented sixth. Intervals are not "dominant".

What he said.

C7: C (root), E (major 3rd), G (Perfect 5th), Bb (minor 7th).
C Maj7: C (root), E (major 3rd), G (perfect 5th), B natural (major 7th)

I'm sure that's understood by the posters above, but clarifying for the new learners reading.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sing it
play it
repeat
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, about the 'naming' of the chords -
a C7 is a chord in the key of C (major) that includes the flatted 7th of the tonic?
AND ...
It 'happens to be' the 'Dominant 7th' chord of F major?
Because F major is the first key that includes the Bb?
edit: and of course because C is the perfect 5th (the dominant) of the F chord.

Jay
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