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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1284
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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Edited
Last edited by dstpt on Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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BraeGrimes Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2011 Posts: 269 Location: Australia
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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dstpt wrote: | Several among us are asking for scientific confirmation of this device, and I get this, but have we as trumpet players always required that level of indepth study before even trying something. |
Nope, just before we buy something...
dstpt wrote: | Was there prior scientific data to back up [Monette's] self-claimed reinvention of the trumpet? Eventually, other builders have followed suit with their own heavy horns. |
Well, Monette's science was based on the lack of change in specification from when trumpets were designed to play in both Bb/A in the late 1800s; not specifically to do with weight per se (thought that makes a difference too). Heavy mouthpieces weren't invented by Monette and he's got an entire range of lighter mouthpieces that have a similar profile to old Conn mouthpieces.
I think LeFreque may be taking advantage of the market for wanting to spend $100s or even $1000s to gain a small advantage (if you could call it that, a lot of it seems 'snake oil'-ish in terms of science - comparing two back-to-back samples of piccolo playing is a very limited sample size) - but if someone really thinks it's worth it, I wouldn't stop them from burning through their wallet. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9008 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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For me, I don't accept that as an answer. Is there no allowance for trial and error, of things working because you were intuitive and not scientific? I've used the analogy before, but how does one account for the mastery of Amati or Stradavarius constructed string instruments?
Furthermore, why would one exclude trying something out just because it doesn't meet certain scientific criteria? Seems self-limiting to me. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BraeGrimes Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2011 Posts: 269 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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kehaulani wrote: | Furthermore, why would one exclude trying something out just because it doesn't meet certain scientific criteria? Seems self-limiting to me. |
Because it's way too expensive for what it claims to do and what it actually is. |
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THE BD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Apr 2005 Posts: 897 Location: Columbus, Oh-hi-uh
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Three of the guys in a big band I used to play with use them religiously, and because of that I tried it, didn't like the response or how it felt. I felt like I was working harder trying to force it to have some improvement so I gave it back.
The three that use it religiously swear by them, but to my ear they still can't play together for crap to begin with. I don't play with that band anymore! _________________ Martin D Williams
Yeah, I did that! |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1284
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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BraeGrimes wrote: | I think LeFreque may be taking advantage of the market for wanting to spend $100s or even $1000s to gain a small advantage (if you could call it that, a lot of it seems 'snake oil'-ish in terms of science… |
Agreed, this is where the whole “Law of Diminishing Returns” would come into play. However, we do find internationally-recognized artists such as Steven Mead, euphonium, advocate the device, so I figure it’s worth checking out before passing judgment.
THE BD wrote: | Three of the guys in a big band I used to play with use them religiously, and because of that I tried it, didn't like the response or how it felt. I felt like I was working harder trying to force it to have some improvement so I gave it back.
The three that use it religiously swear by them, but to my ear they still can't play together for crap to begin with. I don't play with that band anymore! |
Hahahahaha!!!! |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | Science calls for repeatability of results. Until there have been several double-blind tests confirming the value of this device, I will remain very skeptical.
Cheers,
John |
But you really want to come home from the show with something really cool (Brian Lynch, Ken Titmus play them) and you promised your old lady you would NOT come home with a new trumpet. I saved $3K buying the toy and NOT buying a trumpet! PLUS I'm not in the dog house (for that anyway). What a bargain! |
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omelet Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 Posts: 245
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Whether or not those frequency analysis chart results are repeatable under controlled conditions so we find there is indeed some way in which this device is changing the sound, the question becomes whether the difference is distinguishable for anyone listening, and if so, if it is even better or just different. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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There's a quote from the musical "1776" that goes like this:
Don't forget that most men with nothing would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor.
This is the premise upon which most trumpet gadgets are marketed to an audience of trumpet players hopeful and hungry for a miracle. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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dobs Regular Member
Joined: 18 Dec 2004 Posts: 80 Location: Hannover, Germany
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Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:44 am Post subject: |
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I am pretty sure that even without this device the sound waves of one Player playing the same notes two times in a row will be different. You would Need some sort of Robot to see the actual effect of this Thing. And if you can only see the differences through some Computer Analysis but not hear it, what's the Point? |
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Bert-Jan New Member
Joined: 11 May 2017 Posts: 8 Location: Holland
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Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:14 am Post subject: Trent Austin testing lefreQue on youtube |
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https://youtu.be/j6_sXkiEusU _________________ lefreQue |
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Rapier232 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 1322 Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
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Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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In the video of Trent Austin demonstrating them, maybe it’s the speakers on my iPad, but I couldn’t hear much, if any, difference. _________________ "Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
Smith-Watkins Bb
Will Spencer Bb
Eclipse Flugel
Smith Watkins K2 Cornet
JP152 C Trumpet
Besson Bugle
Last edited by Rapier232 on Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dan in Sydney Veteran Member
Joined: 30 Nov 2007 Posts: 257 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote: | Science calls for repeatability of results. Until there have been several double-blind tests confirming the value of this device, I will remain very skeptical.
Cheers,
John |
+1, Mr. Mohan.... _________________ Principal Trumpet,
Sydney Symphony (1978-2011)
Lecturer in Trumpet, Australian National University 1990-2010
Bach Artist and Clinician, Soloist
http://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/artist-information/centerstage/artist-roster/daniel-mendelow/ |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2161 Location: Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
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Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:23 am Post subject: |
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Dan in Sydney wrote: | John Mohan wrote: | Science calls for repeatability of results. Until there have been several double-blind tests confirming the value of this device, I will remain very skeptical.
Cheers,
John |
+1, Mr. Mohan.... |
John & Dan,
Have either of you actually played one?
I ask, because I was actually skeptical as well before I played one. I was shocked what a difference they made when I played them at NAMM this past January. I'm a believer now. |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1284
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Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Trent Austin testing lefreQue on youtube |
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deleted
Last edited by dstpt on Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1021 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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On kehaulani's point, there's a lot of debate about the Strad/Amati mystique on violin boards, and in recent double blind tests the modern handmade instruments are often beating the vintage instruments. (I had a kid doing violin for a while and found the mechanics very interesting). I 100% agree that double blind tests would be good for something like this. If there are any amateur players on here doing a science degree, it would be really easy to set up some of these studies. That said, there are no such studies for 99% of trumpet questions so it is going to be mostly anecdotes and opinion (some more expert than other) on all of these questions. |
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