View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
rbel New Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2019 Posts: 9 Location: Tracy, CA
|
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:36 am Post subject: One more question for air use |
|
|
So one more question about air use,
How is the air changed throughout different registers?
I ask this because many players say faster air makes you play higher, while many others say it makes you play louder. Many players also say that more air makes you play faster, but again many players say it makes you play louder.
So what needs to change with the air throughout different registers?
To anyone that responds, thank you for your time. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
|
Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here's my guess about 'air' - and I DON'T have a good (any?) high range. My reliable 'playing range' is up to G above the staff. I can, and do, play somewhat higher, but have to ration the duration.
Don't get too analytical about air speed, or air flow rate. But do pay attention to what works for you regarding tongue positioning. I don't know if tongue position actually affects air speed or flow, but it does do SOMETHING, and it has to controlled.
I think the 'springiness' of the lip tissue is what mostly determines the pitch. And there are 2 main factors involved -
1) The tissue HAS to be able to vibrate - which means it can't be 'locked in an unmovable position' by the mouthpiece, or by too much muscle use.
2) The air pressure against the tissue HAS to be sufficient to make the vibrations happen. And can't be so high that tissue spring-back doesn't happen.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
|
Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:24 am Post subject: Re: One more question for air use |
|
|
rbel wrote: | So one more question about air use,
How is the air changed throughout different registers?
I ask this because many players say faster air makes you play higher, while many others say it makes you play louder. Many players also say that more air makes you play faster, but again many players say it makes you play louder.
So what needs to change with the air throughout different registers?
|
There' s more than one thing going on.
Responses within the mouthpiece & horn is part of the equation but as far as what changes with the player - i.e. the reed and air supply, what playing higher means is the frequency of the vibrations of the lip tissue changes - higher = vibrates faster/greater frequency. To make this happen the tension across the vibrating surface increases and along with this increased tension faster air facilitates the higher frequency vibrations.
You have to blow with more force to play higher because you're pushing the air through a narrower passageway as the tongue rises to create the faster air. You also blow with more force to play louder at a given pitch/frequency.
Quote: | Don't get too analytical about air speed, or air flow rate. |
This is all done seat of the pants - the feedback loop of your ears and the feel, no one is using a slide-rule or airspeed gauge as they're playing.
Quote: | The air pressure against the tissue HAS to be sufficient to make the vibrations happen. |
etc.
That's another element - it can't be just any vibration. There are nuances in creating the vibrations to get the desired sound. You could create a sound that might be acceptable playing jazz that wouldn't be acceptable in a symphonic/classical environment. Or that wouldn't be acceptable in any environment. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel
Last edited by Robert P on Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
|
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | You have to blow with more force to play higher because you're pushing the air through a narrower passageway as the tongue rises to create the faster air. |
The tongue movement is related to the embouchure effort, especially the roll-out action of the bottom lip.
Even a fairly pronounced arch introduces only a tiny amount of additional resistance to the air flow. And is much less resistant than the aperture and instrument. Tongue arch does not, and can not, increase the air speed through the aperture or increase the air pressure bearing on it.
The reason that high notes require more blowing effort is due to the
1. resistance of the smaller aperture. (Which can be improved with skill development)
2. Increasing acoustic impedance up to about a high C. Above that the acoustic impedance reduces as you ascend and the aperture resistance further increases. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
|
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
kalijah wrote: | Even a fairly pronounced arch introduces only a tiny amount of additional resistance to the air flow. And is much less resistant than the aperture and instrument. Tongue arch does not, and can not, increase the air speed through the aperture or increase the air pressure bearing on it. |
Have you ever watched x-ray/MRI video of someone playing a brass instrument? It's apparently escaped your notice what *always* happens when playing higher vs lower.
Quote: | Tongue arch does not, and can not, increase the air speed through the aperture |
I'm curious to hear you share what you think happens when you push a given volume of air through a narrower passage.
Quote: | The reason that high notes require more blowing effort is due to the
1. resistance of the smaller aperture. (Which can be improved with skill development) |
You're apparently unaware that the aperture at a given pitch isn't fixed. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1410
|
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Robert P wrote: | Quote: | Tongue arch does not, and can not, increase the air speed through the aperture |
I'm curious to hear you share what you think happens when you push a given volume of air through a narrower passage. |
The air speed increases in a narrow passage.
The narrow passage of the tongue-arch tunnel increases the air speed inside the tongue-arch tunnel. But the lip aperture is not inside the tongue-arch tunnel, so it does not see the increase in speed caused by the tongue-arch. The size of the aperture has a substantial effect on the speed of air through the aperture. The size of the tongue-arch tunnel has a substantial effect on the air speed through the tongue-arch tunnel, but little effect on the speed of air through the lip aperture. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
|
Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sometimes I wonder if people intentionally ask these questions then go make a big bowl of popcorn and watch the free circus go round and round... _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
|
Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
mm55 wrote: | Robert P wrote: | Quote: | Tongue arch does not, and can not, increase the air speed through the aperture |
I'm curious to hear you share what you think happens when you push a given volume of air through a narrower passage. |
The air speed increases in a narrow passage.
The narrow passage of the tongue-arch tunnel increases the air speed inside the tongue-arch tunnel. But the lip aperture is not inside the tongue-arch tunnel, so it does not see the increase in speed caused by the tongue-arch. |
The lip aperture is at the exiting end of the air passage. I'm curious what you think puts the brakes on the faster air coming from the narrower passage before it strikes the aperture? _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
|
Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
RobertP, It appears you are assuming that the velocity of the air is what determines the energy of the air. This is an incorrect assumption.The pressure of the air that is bearing on the aperture is at best the pressure of the lung air pressure. If the air is flowing, narrowing the passage of flow before the aperture does not increase the air pressure bearing on the aperture. As a matter of fact any attempt to narrow the flow path will increase the resistance along the path so pressure is decreased along such a narrowed flowpath.
If you assumed that everything somehow remained the same in the system except for a narrowing of the air passage before the aperture, narrowing this flow path would not increase the air pressure bearing on the aperture. It would only reduce it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
|
Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
kalijah wrote: | RobertP, It appears you are assuming that the velocity of the air is what determines the energy of the air. |
I never said anything about "energy of the air".
Quote: | If you assumed that everything somehow remained the same in the system except for a narrowing of the air passage before the aperture, narrowing this flow path would not increase the air pressure bearing on the aperture. It would only reduce it. |
I also never said any of the above - neither that everything remains the same except for narrowing, nor about air pressure bearing on the aperture. ^^^
You're arguing against points that were never made. Go back and read what I said. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
Back to top |
|
|
LSOfanboy Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2018 Posts: 347
|
Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Robert P wrote: |
I also never said any of the above - neither that everything remains the same except for narrowing, nor about air pressure bearing on the aperture. ^^^
You're arguing against points that were never made. Go back and read what I said. |
This happens a lot on these threads. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
|
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
In any case you seem to think that air velocity over the tongue is a factor since you did mention that. You also asked "what puts on the brakes?" in response to mm.
It is also a common error to believe that air velocity in this case somehow increases the impact of the air on the aperture. Excuse me for assuming this was your point. It did "appear" so based on you statement. Please clarify why you think air velocity through the mouth has effect on pitch or anything. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1410
|
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
Robert P wrote: | I'm curious what you think puts the brakes on the faster air coming from the narrower passage before it strikes the aperture? |
I never said anything "puts the brakes on the faster air". The Bernoulli principle describes why a narrower passage leads to faster air velocity through that narrower passage, while a wider passage leads to a lower air velocity through that wider passage, but it doesn't have anything resembling "braking". Maybe you're "arguing against points that were never made." _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
|
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:49 am Post subject: Re: One more question for air use |
|
|
Robert P wrote: | ...
You have to blow with more force to play higher because you're pushing the air through a narrower passageway as the tongue rises to create the faster air. You also blow with more force to play louder at a given pitch/frequency. ...
|
------------------------------------------
I don't think there is any proof that raising the tongue CAUSES faster air. Yes, it is typical for the tongue to rise when blowing faster. Raising the tongue might ALLOW faster air due to a more 'streamlined' air passage (less internal air turbulence for better air flow).
Regarding car race engines, this might be similar to polishing the intake manifold passages to make them more smooth. The rules prohibit enlarging the size of the passages, so instead slightly smaller passages can be polished to make them smooth and still conform to the 'spec' size.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
|
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | Yes, it is typical for the tongue to rise when blowing faster. |
Blowing "faster"? Blowing with more effort increases the air pressure. The flow and velocity of flow then depends on the system you are blowing against and the geometry of that system.
Quote: | Raising the tongue might ALLOW faster air due to a more 'streamlined' air passage (less internal air turbulence for better air flow). |
It does not. The wider air path is always the least turbulent and provides the more efficient flow path. The narrowing of the air path before the aperture by the tongue arch, closed throat, or anything, is a liability to air pressure that reaches the aperture. Air "speed" is always a liability of air energy, including through the aperture.
Quote: | this might be similar to polishing the intake manifold passages to make them more smooth | polishing would make no difference. Since the air flow is at best a laminar flow the air velocity at the boundaries is zero so polishing would make no appreciable difference. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
|
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
RobertP, I did go back and read. And there it is:
RobertP wrote: Quote: | I'm curious to hear you share what you think happens when you push a given volume of air through a narrower passage.
|
I wrote:
Quote: | If you assumed that everything somehow remained the same in the system except for a narrowing of the air passage before the aperture |
Then RobertP wrote: Quote: | I also never said any of the above - neither that everything remains the same except for narrowing, nor about air pressure bearing on the aperture. |
Well as you can see; you did ask a question assuming ONLY a change in the narrowing with a given air flow. (You wrote air "given volume of air" but I did assume you mean air flow.) You also asked me what I think happens. I did so in regard to the air pressure because it is what the aperture "sees".
Also, do you understand the difference between air volume and air flow ? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Robert P Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Feb 2013 Posts: 2579
|
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
kalijah wrote: |
Well as you can see; you did ask a question assuming ONLY a change in the narrowing with a given air flow. |
When I say go back and read what I wrote I mean all of what I wrote, not cherry pick one portion of it out of context and pretend that's all I said. I stated very clearly what happens when one plays higher - then you waded in with various misguided static based on your alternate-universe version of what happens. _________________ Getzen Eterna Severinsen
King Silver Flair
Besson 1000
Bundy
Chinese C
Getzen Eterna Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Rotary Bb/A piccolo
Chinese Flugel |
|
Back to top |
|
|
kalijah Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2003 Posts: 3257 Location: Alabama
|
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well. I responded to the particular question, I think I have made that clear.
I do agree with some things you wrote in your first post. I think both mm55 and I responded to your specific point about air speed over the tongue arch.
Again, you do understand the difference between air flow and air volume, right?
Quote: | then you waded in with various misguided static based on your alternate-universe version of what happens |
Why I wrote is an accurate description. (Which does not include "air-speed" as part of the explanation. ) You are correct that basically the aperture tension does determine the pitch. No disagreement there.
So what exactly is misguided about my explanation? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
|
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think we are back to this as the 'starting point' -
kalijah wrote: | ...
The reason that high notes require more blowing effort is due to the
1. resistance of the smaller aperture. (Which can be improved with skill development)
2. Increasing acoustic impedance up to about a high C. Above that the acoustic impedance reduces as you ascend and the aperture resistance further increases. |
--------------------------------------------
So there are several 'mechanical' questions -
What is the air 'doing' in response to the 'more blowing effort'?
Is the air density increased so more air mass in contained in a given air volume?
Is there a change in the 'flow rate' (air atoms/molecules per second passing thru the aperture)?
And of more practical value - What physiological actions can be done to make the 'more blowing effort' result in high note production?
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
trumpet56 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2010 Posts: 623
|
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I play in the high register with a big pillow of air. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|