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New to Jazz Playing- Where to Start?



 
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jbialkin98
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:55 am    Post subject: New to Jazz Playing- Where to Start? Reply with quote

Most of my experience is in classical playing, but I'm looking to break into the jazz side of things a bit. I have no experience improvising and very little experience in jazz ensembles. What can I do to start learning?
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TrumpetMD
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a common question. So you might find some additional insights by searching this site.

Get a jazz method to work from. I started out with Jamey Aebersold, volumes 1, 2, and 3. Get volume 1, work through it, learning your basic jazz scales and jazz patterns. If it works for you, get volume 2 and 3, and keep going.

You don't have to learn everything at once. But as you continue to learn, try to memorize as much as you can, and try to learn as much as you can in all 12 keys. As you get more advanced, get something like "Patterns For Jazz" by Jerry Coker. This book has been part of my daily routine for much of the past 10 years.

In addition, start learning (and memorizing) the jazz standards (http://www.hopestreetmusicstudios.com/articles/100-must-know-jazz-tunes). At the bottom of this link is a list of easy songs to start with. Page 9 of Jamey Aebersold's free jazz handbook (http://jazzbooks.com/jazz/FQBK) talks about how to learn new songs.

Finally, find some open jazz jam sessions in your area, especially those that welcome people just starting out.

Mike
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solo soprano
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try this,

Link

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Bill Knevitt, who taught me the seven basic physical elements and the ten principles of physical trumpet playing and how to develop them.
https://qpress.ca/product-category/trumpet/?filter_publisher=la-torre-music
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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That seem kinda cool there SS!
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen and copy.
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Richard III
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Listen and copy.


+1
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Listen and copy.


Yes!

Listen and sing it

Listen and move to it -- large movements and small movements of large body parts and small body parts

Listen and "think" it ("Now think, men ... think")

Listen so that you can copy it without an accent (as in "native speaker" vis-a-vis one who speaks with a foreign accent). Don't get distracted with chords, scales, and tunes at first -- the ingrained rhythmic feel must be present before anything else is worth playing (or having your audience listen to).

Jimmy Cleveland plays most of his first chorus (except the bridge) on, essentially, one note here -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwE-m9ipo0M

If you're primarily concerned with jazz on the [i]swing[/i ]side, you've got to feel/comprehend/"get"/internalize the basics and the nuances of the placement(s) and accents of that form of syncopation.


-Denny
not jazz → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ3aAuweMus
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Bronxgroove
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: New to Jazz Playing- Where to Start? Reply with quote

jbialkin98 wrote:
Most of my experience is in classical playing, but I'm looking to break into the jazz side of things a bit. I have no experience improvising and very little experience in jazz ensembles. What can I do to start learning?

Get you self a real book and start learning standards.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a big difference in how you learn to play classical music vs. jazz improvisation. You have to change concepts if you want to learn jazz improvisation. Classical music is about exacting notes and exacting rhythms. Jazz improvisation is about pitches and relative pitches and rhythmic concepts. This is fundamentally very different from learning classical music.

Jazz improvisation requires an instinctive understanding of pitches, relative pitches and rhythmic concepts. Unlike classical music, nothing is written down, you don't have an exact roadmap. Notes don't matter in jazz improvisation. Only pitches and relative pitches matter. This is a hard truth that is very difficult for most players to swallow. They desperately want to apply classical concepts/music theory to jazz improvisation, they want a fixed formula. There just is no fixed formula. You just have to pick up your horn and play your concept instinctively. First you have to develop the language. Then you have to apply the language to develop the vocabulary. The vocabulary is best understood by listening to the great players who play this music. It can't be adequately explained like classical music can be explained.

You have to get to the point that you can hear a pitch, instinctively know what that pitch is and instinctively produce that pitch. No one ever said this is easy. It can take a long time to develop this skill.
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OldDrumCorpDude
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a long time trumpet player who has been getting his feet wet in the jazz realm for the last couple of years, here is what has worked for me so far:

There are only 12 notes in the horn (a chromatic scale). Don’t overthink the problem of which ones to use.

Pick a piece for an improv solo. Come up with an idea of what rhythmic patterns you want to play that match the style of the song.

Learn to listen so you know what sounds good in the context of the song.

Using just notes from the blues scale for the key of the piece, write down your improv solo and play it. It will not sound the way that you want it to at first.

Change the notes (sticking with notes from the blues scale) and the patterns until it sounds good in the context of the piece.

Go perform the solo.

Repeat.
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trpthawaii
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, you want to dive into jazz...
On the trumpet playing side, you want to be able to hear and be fluid in all keys. Dust off Clarke "Technical Studies", "Daily Drills and Technical Studies" and open Arban to the exercises that go through all keys. I recommend Arban page 20 #46 and pages 142-143 # 48 & 49 ( from classic Goldman/Smith Arban ). Play through every major and minor key center every day.

Next, learn learn the language of improvisation. Study transcribed solos and common licks or patterns. I'd recommend "Clifford Brown with Strings" published by qpress.ca and the Charlie Parker Omnibook for playable transcriptions. Strive to play along with the original recordings. Memorize a few choruses of blues and rhythm changes from the Omnibook and you have a foundation from which to get started and explore improvisation.

"Patterns for Jazz" by Jerry Coker et al. is a classic text that provides patterns for improvisation and works on ear training in all keys. A must have for daily practice.

Most importantly, LISTEN! To really get into jazz improvisation, TRANSCRIBE or, at least, PLAY ALONG with favorite recordings. Can you play along with a favorite performance? Can you improvise your own line weaving around the recorded artists? Use your ears to hear what works and doesn't work and listen to anticipate where the song is going.

Know the sounds and styles of the greats: Louis Armstrong, Bubber Miley and Cootie Williams, Harry James, Roy Eldridge, Clark Terry, Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, Clifford Brown, Freddie Hubbard, Lee Morgan, Woody Shaw, Wynton Marsalis... the list is endless.

The recordings "Legacy" by Jon Faddis and "Trumpet Evolution" by Arturo Sandoval are brilliant examples of how these two artists have absorbed the styles of and pay tribute to the geniuses of the past.

Choose the artists you enjoy, songs you wish to learn and start playing along and transcribing. Start collecting fake books and learning tunes. Many fake books are now available as pdf files.

Were one to learn a classical piece... say, the Haydn concerto, A trumpeter would practice to learn and be able to play the notes while also listening to recordings of Andre, Helseth, Balsom, Voisin, Herseth, Hardenberger, Marsalis, et. al. to learn proper tone, style and phrasing. The student would note areas of common agreement in style and artistic differences, choose favorite recordings and try to copy. Over time, the influences of many favorite artists merge and the student begins to demonstrate a unique style that is based upon the common practice of those that came before.

Jazz is no different. Clark Terry put it well: "imitate, assimilate, innovate."

Mark Minasian
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gabriel127
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to begin by admitting that I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder against classical players and I'll tell you why:

When I first started taking trumpet lessons, I was sent to a conservatory where the trumpet teachers were classical players. They told me, we're going to teach you classically because "if you can play classical music, you can play anything."

These teachers were snobs and when I say snobs, I mean SNOBS, so much so, that they were actually nasty about it. They thought just because they had good sound and good technique, this was everything. They used to ridicule jazz players and say that jazz players aren't trumpet players. Their playing is sloppy, their sound is bad and the reason they play jazz is that they don't have the sound or technique to play classical.

Then when I heard these classical players try to play jazz stuff, they sucked at it. I'm not just talking about improvisation. They could not swing. They played like a bunch of squares. When I got into college, it was more of the same. The classical players could not swing if their lives depended on it.

I always loved jazz and commercial music. Despite my early classical training, I was always playing along with Herb Alpert and Al Hirt as a kid. At 15, I was playing in a wedding band, playing all of the songs by ear because I heard them playing around the house when I was younger. I could play any tune in any key, just because I had great ears to begin with. In that wedding band, I was called upon to play improvised background parts in between the vocalist's melody phrases. I did pretty well at it and this was kind of a primer for learning to play jazz.

I'll never forget in college, we were playing the Glen Miller arrangement of "Serenade in Blue." There's a trumpet line that plays over the saxes, which have the melody at one point in the intro. A classical trumpet player was playing the second part that has this line and when he attempted to play it, what a freakin' train wreck he made it. He had no freakin' idea on how to make it swing. Every note was written out for him, yet he could not play it correctly because it wasn't a concerto or an etude.

This guy was a friend of mine, so I tried to help him with it. I went home that weekend and made some cassettes for him of my father's jazz recordings, brought some Harry James recordings and told him, "listen to these players." When you play that Serenade in Blue line, play it the way these guys play. I even demonstrated how to play that actual line many times. He just couldn't get it.

Experiences like these could have easily caused me to form an opinion that classical players are so entrenched at an early age in playing etudes, excerpts, and concerti, that they become technical robots. Instead of putting soul into their playing, they attack and sound each note the same way. But by forming that opinion, I'd be just as closed-minded as my early classical teachers who criticized all jazz players and ridiculed them for not having good technique. Apparently, these guys had never heard of Clark Terry and others like him. I think the reason they were so critical of jazz players was because they probably tried their hands at jazz improv at some point in their lives and they really sucked at it, thus their criticism for jazz and jazz players may have been rooted in jealousy. It's the same kind of jealousy that causes them to say that the reason that lead commercial players can play so high is because they use "cheater" or "pea-shooter" mouthpieces. My response to them would be to hand them one of these "cheater" mouthpieces and say, " OK, here's a 'cheater' mouthpiece. Can you demonstrate to me how to play high with it?" That would shut them up in a hurry.

So I'm not going to stoop to my early teachers' level and say, if you're a classical player stick to your classical because classical players can't play jazz. None of you guys can swing, nor can you improvise, you're a bunch of squares. I'm not going to say that.

But what I will say is this:

Perhaps before you go shedding patterns out of the Jerry Coker book and learning licks off of transcriptions, listen to a lot of players who played with soul and didn't always play right on the beat, such as Louis Armstrong, Clifford Brown, Freddie Hubbard, Harry James. Listen to the feeling that they put into every note. Then copy them. Just play the melodies. Learn to play with SOUL FIRST! Jazz is REAL music, it comes from the heart. It's not a bunch of dots on a page. When you can play even simple melodies by ear with tons of soul, then you should start improvising and you'll be able to put this same kind of soul into your improvising. Try to transcribe things by ear. But don't delve into jazz with this highly-technical classical approach because you'll become one of these robots who just plays notes. With that said, I'll echo what Mark Minasian said in his post above because he makes some really good recommendations.

Trust me, I hear plenty of kids come out of college, particularly sax players, who learn the technique of playing jazz, they know how to play jazz over chord charts and they can play fast like Kenny G, but they still do not play with soul. To me, they sound like robots. And a lot of them can't play a note without having the music in front of them. They can't play a melody without the notes written out for them and they can't improvise without having the chords written out in front of them.

Don't be one of those guys.
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Denny Schreffler
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Listen and copy.


Learn to speak Jazz?

Chase Sanborn → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfaeoHpIhjE&loop=0


-
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mpsjazz
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denny Schreffler wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Listen and copy.


Yes!

Listen and sing it

Listen and move to it -- large movements and small movements of large body parts and small body parts

Listen and "think" it ("Now think, men ... think")

Listen so that you can copy it without an accent (as in "native speaker" vis-a-vis one who speaks with a foreign accent). Don't get distracted with chords, scales, and tunes at first -- the ingrained rhythmic feel must be present before anything else is worth playing (or having your audience listen to).

Jimmy Cleveland plays most of his first chorus (except the bridge) on, essentially, one note here -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwE-m9ipo0M

If you're primarily concerned with jazz on the [i]swing[/i ]side, you've got to feel/comprehend/"get"/internalize the basics and the nuances of the placement(s) and accents of that form of syncopation.


-Denny
not jazz → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ3aAuweMus


I have to agree with Denny about the listening and not getting into the academic side of it till there's a real feel for the music. Most of the greats developed their jazz interactively, with other musicians, not by spending long hours in isolation with playalongs and tutor books. At the jam sessions and gigs, you can always tell which guys are too hooked on their playalongs - they sound like they are unaware of the other musicians.

The most useful materials are the assorted "fake books" and the iRealpro app. A lot of the fake books are available in pdf format now. Speaking of fake books; the ubiquitous "Real Book"(s) are not necessarily the most useful ones. They are beautifully made, but their concept of "jazz standards" is esoteric to say the least. So anyway, there's no need to spend lots of money on materials or summer courses, and no need to worry about every scale/mode, extended harmony and vertical improvisation technique - not at the beginning anyway.
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mpsjazz
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gabriel127 wrote:
I'm going to begin by admitting that I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder against classical players and I'll tell you why:

When I first started taking trumpet lessons, I was sent to a conservatory where the trumpet teachers were classical players. They told me, we're going to teach you classically because "if you can play classical music, you can play anything."

These teachers were snobs and when I say snobs, I mean SNOBS, so much so, that they were actually nasty about it. They thought just because they had good sound and good technique, this was everything. They used to ridicule jazz players and say that jazz players aren't trumpet players. Their playing is sloppy, their sound is bad and the reason they play jazz is that they don't have the sound or technique to play classical.

Then when I heard these classical players try to play jazz stuff, they sucked at it. I'm not just talking about improvisation. They could not swing. They played like a bunch of squares. When I got into college, it was more of the same. The classical players could not swing if their lives depended on it.

I always loved jazz and commercial music. Despite my early classical training, I was always playing along with Herb Alpert and Al Hirt as a kid. At 15, I was playing in a wedding band, playing all of the songs by ear because I heard them playing around the house when I was younger. I could play any tune in any key, just because I had great ears to begin with. In that wedding band, I was called upon to play improvised background parts in between the vocalist's melody phrases. I did pretty well at it and this was kind of a primer for learning to play jazz.

I'll never forget in college, we were playing the Glen Miller arrangement of "Serenade in Blue." There's a trumpet line that plays over the saxes, which have the melody at one point in the intro. A classical trumpet player was playing the second part that has this line and when he attempted to play it, what a freakin' train wreck he made it. He had no freakin' idea on how to make it swing. Every note was written out for him, yet he could not play it correctly because it wasn't a concerto or an etude.

This guy was a friend of mine, so I tried to help him with it. I went home that weekend and made some cassettes for him of my father's jazz recordings, brought some Harry James recordings and told him, "listen to these players." When you play that Serenade in Blue line, play it the way these guys play. I even demonstrated how to play that actual line many times. He just couldn't get it.

Experiences like these could have easily caused me to form an opinion that classical players are so entrenched at an early age in playing etudes, excerpts, and concerti, that they become technical robots. Instead of putting soul into their playing, they attack and sound each note the same way. But by forming that opinion, I'd be just as closed-minded as my early classical teachers who criticized all jazz players and ridiculed them for not having good technique. Apparently, these guys had never heard of Clark Terry and others like him. I think the reason they were so critical of jazz players was because they probably tried their hands at jazz improv at some point in their lives and they really sucked at it, thus their criticism for jazz and jazz players may have been rooted in jealousy. It's the same kind of jealousy that causes them to say that the reason that lead commercial players can play so high is because they use "cheater" or "pea-shooter" mouthpieces. My response to them would be to hand them one of these "cheater" mouthpieces and say, " OK, here's a 'cheater' mouthpiece. Can you demonstrate to me how to play high with it?" That would shut them up in a hurry.

So I'm not going to stoop to my early teachers' level and say, if you're a classical player stick to your classical because classical players can't play jazz. None of you guys can swing, nor can you improvise, you're a bunch of squares. I'm not going to say that.

But what I will say is this:

Perhaps before you go shedding patterns out of the Jerry Coker book and learning licks off of transcriptions, listen to a lot of players who played with soul and didn't always play right on the beat, such as Louis Armstrong, Clifford Brown, Freddie Hubbard, Harry James. Listen to the feeling that they put into every note. Then copy them. Just play the melodies. Learn to play with SOUL FIRST! Jazz is REAL music, it comes from the heart. It's not a bunch of dots on a page. When you can play even simple melodies by ear with tons of soul, then you should start improvising and you'll be able to put this same kind of soul into your improvising. Try to transcribe things by ear. But don't delve into jazz with this highly-technical classical approach because you'll become one of these robots who just plays notes. With that said, I'll echo what Mark Minasian said in his post above because he makes some really good recommendations.

Trust me, I hear plenty of kids come out of college, particularly sax players, who learn the technique of playing jazz, they know how to play jazz over chord charts and they can play fast like Kenny G, but they still do not play with soul. To me, they sound like robots. And a lot of them can't play a note without having the music in front of them. They can't play a melody without the notes written out for them and they can't improvise without having the chords written out in front of them.

Don't be one of those guys.


I agree with pretty much everything Gabrtel127 said. I was systematically discouraged by straight teachers who couldn't understand what I wanted to do and who completely failed to see how motivated I was in something other than what they were used to teaching. I had about 6 assorted teachers because I was studying music as a main subject at pre-univeristy level - UK system. I felt like I was invisible. So, I borrowed records, copied people's chord books by hand, walked miles across the city to get into jazz venues, scratched my own LP records while transcribing the melodies as best as I could (because there were no useful books) and, over the years, taught myself to play jazz. It's a shame I wasn't encouraged more or advised of the few available university jazz courses. It would have made the journey a bit quicker, but then again, I might have become an over-trained jazz clone with no sound of my own.

And I love that shortlist of jazz trumpet players to listen to. What sounds they all had! Any beginner must listen to them. I still do a lot. I would add Bobby Hackett and Bix Beiderbecke, and if it's not too precipitate for early listening, I'd add Lee Morgan.
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scarface
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
Listen and copy.


I think you meant by ear, but transcribing solos also helps. I never got serious about jazz, but took improv classes a few times in college. The first instructor had me transcribe some Miles Davis solos from Kind of Blue. You'll naturally sound a little more like your subject after transcribing, which can help at first.

Another teacher, great sax player, had a cool exercise for learning to improvise; maybe this is widely used, not sure. He'd put on a tune from a Jamey Aebersold, and these were the rules: Play whatever you want between the changes, but land on the root of the chord at each change. Next pass, land on the 3rd, then 5th, etc. It really got you thinking ahead toward the next change after a while.

I also got "the talk" in school, but it came from a more practical place, about job opportunities etc, and never from a negative standpoint about the music.

Cool vid:


Link
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mpsjazz
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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

scarface wrote:
Billy B wrote:
Listen and copy.


I also got "the talk" in school, but it came from a more practical place, about job opportunities etc, and never from a negative standpoint about the music.


Yes, college courses and summer couses can offer networking and wider skills than just the improvision; in fact they are weak on impro and style because they are made for everybody, and only feature the most obvious household names as role models. There is even a danger of getting bored out of your mind if you're favourite style is not included.

So single-line impro is mainly learned the fun way with the jazz buddies who live not too far from you. I admit that getting started can be a problem. If you have no ambition to play jazz professionally, forget the big courses and the playalongs and solicit a few 121 clases with a local clued-up jazz musician. Your study will be assisted if you can play and record (smartphone, whatever) a few simple chords on a keyboard or a guitar.
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