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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9828 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Claude Gordon's method (which is a combination of how Herbert L. Clarke, Louis Maggio, Arban, St Jacome, Gatti, Ernest Williams, Charles Colin, Earl Irons, and the other Greats taught) gave me a career.
Before finding out about Claude, using his books (and the many classic trumpet books he and his method assign) and eventually studying with him I was a typical player with embouchure trouble, endurance issues, and a range stuck around High C for years. Learning from Claude what to practice, how to practice and when to practice (and when to rest) allowed me to develop the ability to work as a full time professional trumpet player for more than 30 years.
Here's an article I wrote nearly 20 years ago about my time studying with Claude and the results of that studying (and practicing):
https://www.purtle.com/how-i-became-a-student-of-claude-gordon-by-john-mohan
Sincerely,
John Mohan
Skype Lessons Available - Click on the e-mail button below if interested _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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the_zigzagger Regular Member
Joined: 25 Oct 2017 Posts: 14 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:12 am Post subject: |
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It's been said, but it really can't be said enough: put your energy into finding a good, local teacher to take lessons from regularly. There is no book, method, internet forum, mouthpiece (Lord, the endless mouthpiece discussions ) that will get you to where you say you want to go faster, more efficiently -- and it should be said, more enjoyably -- than a good teacher.
For sure they are easier to find in bigger markets but they exist where you are, you may need to work harder to find the right one but he/she is there and finding them is worth the effort. Pro tip: find a couple and take a lesson or two with each and see who you connect with best.
I was in a similar situation as you a little over a year ago, looking for a teacher. I found a handful of the best players in town, sent them emails through their websites, and got various responses and recommendations that eventually lead me to the genius that is Chad McCullough. Over the past year, he's given me approaches/exercises from Caruso, Stamp, Burns and others, filtered through his own deep experience (he studied with Vizzutti, among others) to essentially create a custom "method" that is best *for me*.
My 2 cents, but I think that's what you want: someone who can get to know your strengths and weaknesses and help you progress in the ways you want/need.
One more unsolicited piece of advice, but judging from the nature of your post, I'm guessing you are ripe for the endless/nonsensical mouthpiece shenanigans many of the folks on this forum are so found of. Save yourself the hassle and contact Chad through his website. He's an AR Resonance rep. He'll give you a free consultation, and send you some test rims and backbores so you can dial-in your setup (another Pro tip: when you test the pieces have someone around so you can not only judge by how it feels/plays but get some feedback from someone in the room on how you sound from the business end of the horn) ... or, better yet, drive up to Chicago and make a day of it: hit the art museum, get a good meal, do the mouthpiece thing with Chad (he makes hella good coffee).
Don't waste a bunch of time and money, buying and selling and handwringing. It doesn't have to be as complicated as folks around here would lead you to believe. I believe there are other mouthpiece makers that offer a similar service if AR doesn't excite you ... though in my, obviously biased, opinion it should.
All that said, best of luck. It's all there if you want it bad enough ... less time on the internets and more time with a teacher and practicing will serve you best.
ZZ |
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50YrComeback Regular Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 71 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ed Kennedy wrote: | http://www.jimmanleymusic.com/
This guy is in St. Louis and he is the real deal. Check him out. |
I did - Wow! Some serious chops right here in my home town. I went through the all of his youtube stuff as well. Maybe he'll take on an old-timer like me. His views on the breathing very similar to videos from Wayne Bergeron & James Morrison. When I was a kid, they just said breathe through your diaphragm, which never resonated with me at the time. _________________ GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"
50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet |
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50YrComeback Regular Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 71 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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the_zigzagger wrote: | It's been said, but it really can't be said enough: put your energy into finding a good, local teacher to take lessons from regularly. There is no book, method, internet forum, mouthpiece (Lord, the endless mouthpiece discussions ) that will get you to where you say you want to go faster, more efficiently -- and it should be said, more enjoyably -- than a good teacher.
For sure they are easier to find in bigger markets but they exist where you are, you may need to work harder to find the right one but he/she is there and finding them is worth the effort. Pro tip: find a couple and take a lesson or two with each and see who you connect with best.
I was in a similar situation as you a little over a year ago, looking for a teacher. I found a handful of the best players in town, sent them emails through their websites, and got various responses and recommendations that eventually lead me to the genius that is Chad McCullough. Over the past year, he's given me approaches/exercises from Caruso, Stamp, Burns and others, filtered through his own deep experience (he studied with Vizzutti, among others) to essentially create a custom "method" that is best *for me*.
My 2 cents, but I think that's what you want: someone who can get to know your strengths and weaknesses and help you progress in the ways you want/need.
One more unsolicited piece of advice, but judging from the nature of your post, I'm guessing you are ripe for the endless/nonsensical mouthpiece shenanigans many of the folks on this forum are so found of. Save yourself the hassle and contact Chad through his website. He's an AR Resonance rep.
ZZ |
You have me pegged. On my 2nd MPC already. My daughter lives in Chicago, I just may do that and be done with it. _________________ GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"
50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet |
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50YrComeback Regular Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 71 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:38 pm Post subject: In Search of A Method |
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Appreciate all of the input, encouragement and ideas - Although some different method suggestions, I see some old and somewhat familiar themes running through them;
Get good teaching
Practice diligently and methodically
Don't over do it - rest as necessary
Be Patient - Results will come- Trust the process
Lastly, get off the internet and get going!!!!
So, signing off "In Search of a Method"
Thanks
GaryF _________________ GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"
50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet |
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rothman Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Jan 2014 Posts: 326
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:08 am Post subject: Re: In Search of A Method |
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50YrComeback wrote: |
Lastly, get off the internet and get going!!!!
So, signing off "In Search of a Method"
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If I were approaching the horn in the manner you seem to be, my choice would be a few dozen outings (skype) with LaBarbera of Florida. Some of the reviews of him are in the 'five star' range for a few lessons, which is rather sparse for study.
There are other teachers, but very few can touch him in as many areas. |
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50YrComeback Regular Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 71 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:00 am Post subject: Re: In Search of A Method |
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rothman wrote: | 50YrComeback wrote: |
Lastly, get off the internet and get going!!!!
So, signing off "In Search of a Method"
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If I were approaching the horn in the manner you seem to be, my choice would be a few dozen outings (skype) with LaBarbera of Florida. Some of the reviews of him are in the 'five star' range for a few lessons, which is rather sparse for study.
There are other teachers, but very few can touch him in as many areas. | Thanks - I did a quick search - & he's just recently had an accident - w GoFundMe, etc. - I have a local guy lined up - Don Manley of STL _________________ GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"
50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet |
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tampa49 New Member
Joined: 10 Apr 2014 Posts: 5 Location: Tampa, Florida
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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I am a comeback player after a 30 year break, now playing the last 15 years, I have had several teachers, which were good, but I agree with BEAR30101 .
I have realized the most benefit from using the Greg Spence Mastery to Mystery series, helped with sound, embouchure and stamina. The other thing that helped immensely was using the Stamp method on a daily basis. I recently spent a week in Los Angeles with Malcolm McNab, and he is a big proponent of The Stamp Method. He claims it helped him be the success he is. Lastly find a couple of groups to play with, this will help with the motivation.
Good luck, Play every day, but rest as much as you play. _________________ Calicchio 3/10
Lawler 24B
Lawler 21B
Lawler C7
Lawler Model T in C
Yamaha 732 Bb
Bach Stradivarius 72*
Benge Resno 5 Flugelhorn
Couesnon Flugelhorn
Member Bugles Across America |
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50YrComeback Regular Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 71 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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tampa49 wrote: | I am a comeback player after a 30 year break, now playing the last 15 years, I have had several teachers, which were good, but I agree with BEAR30101 .
I have realized the most benefit from using the Greg Spence Mastery to Mystery series, helped with sound, embouchure and stamina. The other thing that helped immensely was using the Stamp method on a daily basis. I recently spent a week in Los Angeles with Malcolm McNab, and he is a big proponent of The Stamp Method. He claims it helped him be the success he is. Lastly find a couple of groups to play with, this will help with the motivation.
Good luck, Play every day, but rest as much as you play. |
Thanks - I have lesson scheduled with BEAR30101's recommendation Don Manley and will pick his brain. _________________ GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"
50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8910 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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While I don't consider these a structured method per se, I did get a lot of mileage out of the Vizzutti series before I found my way to private lessons. Since then I'm a much bigger fan of the Stamp method, though it really benefits from the guidance of a familiar teacher. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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50YrComeback Regular Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 71 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:05 pm Post subject: In Search of A Method |
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FYI - I used the name Don Manley a couple of times in this thread. It's actually Jim Manley. Had first lesson with him and will be working on his approach, which is not the conventional method book. Once I get a few months out, I'll be able to judge the results but I've bought in and excited. He's a phenomenal player with enormous range. Very personable and really spends the time explaining basics of producing quality sound out of this crazy instrument. I see some guys on demonstrating range techniques and the notes sound like a mixture of spit and air. Jim's are crystal clear with great musicality. So, its Jim Manley http://www.jimmanleymusic.com/ _________________ GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"
50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet |
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grune Regular Member
Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 67
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:20 am Post subject: Re: In Search of A Method |
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[quote="50YrComeback"]Which Method ā I want to pick a method and run with it ā
More info; I played 9 years from 3rd grade and just got burned out. I was an above average high school trumpet player, first chair and all that jazz. After a 50 year break (Iām 67), .................
Frankly, a former, true pro would not be asking how to "comeback": s/he would know and have the materials in her/his library. You say you stopped after high school, which says it all. Your best "method" is to find a competent teacher. _________________ Bach Stradivarius, 180S37 (Silver Model 37 Bb), ML75618, purchased new in 1972. |
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50YrComeback Regular Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2018 Posts: 71 Location: St. Louis
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:57 am Post subject: |
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Thanks - FYI - I was never a "true pro", just an above average high school player and I have never kept much of anything for 50 years, particularly old music methods or a trumpet for that matter. I also agree on the teaching suggestion which I have taken care of. Have been back 4 months now and progressing quite nicely. _________________ GaryF
"I'm probably not as good as I used to think that I was"
50 year layoff
Giardenelli 812S (a/k/a Amati ATR-604HS)
CarolBrass CPT-1000 Mini Trumpet |
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rthomas8 New Member
Joined: 17 Jun 2019 Posts: 2 Location: New Braunfels, Texas
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:31 am Post subject: |
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checkout "The Comeback Trumpet Player" by Mark Hendricks. Great warm up and info then workouts in all keys. _________________ Rick Thomas |
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gwood66 Veteran Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 301 Location: South of Chicago
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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:58 am Post subject: |
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What did you end up going with? If you still have yet to decide, I think some of the best out there for starting out (I am only listing methods that I own/have used):
Flexibility:
Embouchure Builder - Lowell Little
Irons 27 Groups
Technical Studies
Clarke Technical Studies
Vizzutti book 2
Scale Force - Rich Willey
Know Your Trumpet - Lowell Little
Etudes
Any by Sigmund Herring
Getchell books 1 and 2
All in one
Arban (Vizzutti version)
Franquin Method
Mitchell on Trumpet
Systematic Approach to Daily Practice (if you do it right you will need 5 other books)
Bill Knevitt Trumpet Course (same as above) |
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HornnOOb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 897 Location: East of the Sun & West of the Moon
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Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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It's been my experience that a really good teacher, one that you can gel with, is very difficult to find. My first teacher was perfect. He had a BA in Trumpet performance and a Masters in Music Education. I learn a lot from him. But I eventually moved out of the area. Found another teacher when I got resettled, but after just two lessons, I came down with a medical issue that required a big surgery and a lot of recovery time. So, that was the end of trumpet lessons for a while. Now, I'm wanting to get connected with another trumpet teacher, but can't find one where I live now. I tried the teacher who is connected with the symphony, but we didn't gel. He literally talked too much -- burned-up too much lesson time on frivolity. So, I just practice on my own with Arbans and various Fake Books and sheet music and YouTubes. I listen to a lot of music as well. _________________ I rode in on a horse and can't seem to get out of L.A.
Severinsen Destino 3*
1971 Getzen Eterna 900S Severinsen Model
1984 Getzen Eterna 896 Flugelhorn
1951 Olds Special Cornet
Denis Wick 1C Heavytop
Getzen Flugel 3C |
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shastastan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 1405 Location: Redding, CA
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:52 am Post subject: |
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HornnOOb wrote: | It's been my experience that a really good teacher, one that you can gel with, is very difficult to find. My first teacher was perfect. He had a BA in Trumpet performance and a Masters in Music Education. I learn a lot from him. But I eventually moved out of the area. Found another teacher when I got resettled, but after just two lessons, I came down with a medical issue that required a big surgery and a lot of recovery time. So, that was the end of trumpet lessons for a while. Now, I'm wanting to get connected with another trumpet teacher, but can't find one where I live now. I tried the teacher who is connected with the symphony, but we didn't gel. He literally talked too much -- burned-up too much lesson time on frivolity. So, I just practice on my own with Arbans and various Fake Books and sheet music and YouTubes. I listen to a lot of music as well. |
I'm now 80 and have been back 14 years after 50 off. I've tried a lot of different "method books", had a teacher for a short time, and finally realized that my choice of tone, as my #1 priority worked best for me. For exercises, lip slurs, via Schlossberg, seem to keep my chops up adequately. The Wedge has been kind and helpful to my embouchure. I only play for personal enjoyment, at church, and in a local brass ensemble. I don't want playing to be a cause of stress. Luckily I have found the horns that I like so I've been done with equipment/mouthpiece safari for many years. I don't practice everyday, but I do realize that I should. I do have some health issues that I try not to let affect my playing. We all just have to work playing in with the rest of our lives and be realistic about it. It may take some time, with trial and error, to find the "balance" point though. |
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RussellDDixon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 Apr 2014 Posts: 830 Location: Mason, OH
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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I am self taught and have been for 49 years. I have used:
Herbert L. Clarke Technical Studies
Herbert L. Clarke Setting Up Drills
Herbert L. Clarke Characteristic Studies
Schlossberg's Daily Drills
Arban's
Modern Flexibilities For Brass by Scott Belck
Charles Colin's Advanced Lip Flexibilities
The Maggio System For Brass
Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach (and every book that goes with it)
as well as others over the years.
Cincinnati Pro Matt Anklan introduced me to the teachings of Bill Adam so I bought the following book sometime ago and love it ! It has actual Bill Adam Routines in it as used by Jerry Hey, Larry Hall, and Charley Davis and is authored by Charley Davis. The 3 trumpet players mentioned are all three prominent Los Angeles Studio Players.
http://www.balquhiddermusic.com/brass-studies/tribute-to-william-adam-davis
This book is laid out in lessons which include Clarke's Technical Studies exercises, Schlossberg's exercises, long tones, scales in various modes etc. It's a great daily workout which I play every other day in conjunction with The Maggio System For Brass. Switching these two off every other day has been a great routine for me and usually takes an hour to 90 minutes to complete. _________________ Schilke X3 Bb trumpet
Yamaha 631g Flugelhorn
Lynn Nicholson Model Monette Prana XLT mouthpiece
Kanstul Claude Gordon Personal mouthpiece |
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kozzicomma Regular Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2018 Posts: 39
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: In Search of A Method |
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50YrComeback wrote: | Maybe I am expecting too much too quick but I just want a good plan and then I will trust the plan. |
I haven't read all of the responses in this thread, so bear with me if I mention anything that may have been mentioned a hundred times. However, I started a come-back in earnest just about a year ago (will be exactly one year on October 30, 2019). I didn't take nearly the time off the horn you have, so I would expect my experience to be less "painful" than yours, but still relatable. #1 thing: PATIENCE! literally above all else, you MUST be patient. You are not going to achieve success in a hurry, that's for damn sure. Not only that, but you may achieve some success only to see it fade away or just disappear completely the next day only to return a few weeks or months later. It has been a very frustrating experience for me this past year, but I've come so far which has made it very rewarding as well. But what exactly is patience? Well, for me, patience means not beating myself or my chops up, expecting to make up for lost time. All this will do is set you back. As my teacher says "at the end of the day, leave yourself wanting to come back for more". So if, for example, range is something you're working on and you're finally passing a previous threshold, High C for example, don't beat your chops up playing beyond High C for hours. Stop. Keep in mind what everything felt like and leave it for your next day's practice routine. Put the horn down, write down your thoughts about how it felt and listen back to your recording of yourself (you should be recording by the way). Honestly, you're doing yourself way more good by thinking and/or writing about how it felt to play up there than you would blasting out Cs, Ds, Ebs, etc. for an hour or two. #2: get a teacher you can trust and stay with them. I know you said you have one, but just reiterating this as it is very important. #3: set goals for yourself, both long and short term. If you're like me, you may not really have a long term goal clearly defined, other than "I want to be the best I can be". I think that's a good goal, either way. But set some very short term goals and make sure your practice sessions are geared toward that end. In my case, I know what i'm striving for each day and week on the horn. I have clear goals set for myself and I know if i'm moving toward achievement of those goals or not. Maybe a method gets you to your goals (and maybe they would help me too), but my routines use a lot of material across many different methods, so I can't speak to a specific method. This, i believe, is a better conversation to have with your teacher. and finally #4: be honest with yourself. As this is turning into a long post, i won't elaborate, but this should be self explanatory.
My come-back has been rewarding overall. I'm very happy with where I am currently and I know that i still have a long way to go (and that's a wonderful thing). I have been depressed, sad, frustrated, angry, etc. etc. But I have been ecstatic, overjoyed, beside myself at times as well. As my wife says "you're on a roller coaster". I am, because I really care. It sounds like you do too. Just don't give up. Concentrate on your goals. Don't be afraid to ask your teacher questions, and above all else be patient! You're going to need the patience of a Zen master! Good luck to you on your journey! We're all rooting for you! |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 8965 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Man, could you please use some paragraphs? Sure would be easier to read. Thanks. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Getzen Capri Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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