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Holton T102 and GT102S the same trumpet model?



 
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:33 pm    Post subject: Holton T102 and GT102S the same trumpet model? Reply with quote

Hello,

I've been reading great things about Holton T102 being a very good instrument, inspired by a Bach 43 trumpet.

Not far from where I live, there is a Holton GT102S for sale for a decent price. I wonder if this is the same model as the Holton T102 that people talk about.

Here is what the Holton GT102S looks like (not the actual trumpet for sale). Notice the amado-style waterkey on the main tuning slide and the absence of a waterkey on the third valve slide:



Are Holton T102 and GT102S the same trumpet, modelled after the Bach 43?
If they are not the same, what can you tell me about the GT102S?

Thank you.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, it is important to note that there was more than one “T-102”. The first in 1965 was based on the Model 50 “Medium bore” that had been released in 1962 and was extended (with some minor changes and going from 2 models to 4) following the 1965 sale to Leblanc as T-101, T-102, T-103 & T-104. These were Conn 38B inspired horns unrelated to the later T-10X series based on a 1981 Elkhart Bach purchased locally, dis-assembled, and measured at the old Martin plant.

The 1981 T-10X series consisted of the T-101 that was the clone of the Bach purchased (with different threads and a slight difference in the piston mass & length) which was a 37. Then the T-102 was the same with a 43 bell and the T-103 got the 72 bell clone. The 38B .459 bore continued for a time as the T-104. Also, an LT-101 lightweight version was released a bit later. In 2000, the LT-101 was on its way out and 100 LT-101 bodies were combined with standard weight 37 bells to make the TM-2000s, which were so well received that the design was continued in 2001 as the T-105.

Holton went back & forth between amado and standard water keys over the years on these. The lack of one on the dump slide on third is faithful reproduction of the Bach design. (They made an exception around the time of the TM-2000 and did put one on that)

The ”GT” designation is unusual, and I only see these coming from overseas. Specifically, I have only seen it on horns being sold by a specific company in Japan, and applied to both the 1981 T-10X horns and the post-2000 versions that have only one main brace. These only appear as serial 87XXXX instruments (right around the point at which the bracing changed) and only as T-102 and T-103 (no 37s). I have seen also both receivers marked T-10X and marked just Holton on these, which is odd given the very close serial numbers between those in both the case of the bracing and the receiver. The stop screw on the third valve slide is inconsistent with T-10X horns of any vintage I have seen from US sources. The Bach stop rod remained in use on T-10X horns until the end of Holton in 2007. There do not appear to be scars from prior stop rod posts or a brace in the original position now occupied by that screw. I can only offer guesses as to reasons.

1) Maybe Holton leveraged its relationship with Yamaha building these in Japan for Japan
2) Maybe this company selling these is rebuilding them from parts
3) Maybe Holton made these in the US for export, tailoring the details to Asian tastes

I have not been able to get a good look at the markings on the back of second valve on any of these. If the “G” and the “S” appear to be added symmetrically at either end of “T102” there over “USA”, then I would lean toward these being a product of the seller. If not though, then they must have been a brief experiment.
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
First, it is important to note that there was more than one “T-102”. The first in 1965 was based on the Model 50 “Medium bore” that had been released in 1962 and was extended (with some minor changes and going from 2 models to 4) following the 1965 sale to Leblanc as T-101, T-102, T-103 & T-104. These were Conn 38B inspired horns unrelated to the later T-10X series based on a 1981 Elkhart Bach purchased locally, dis-assembled, and measured at the old Martin plant.

The 1981 T-10X series consisted of the T-101 that was the clone of the Bach purchased (with different threads and a slight difference in the piston mass & length) which was a 37. Then the T-102 was the same with a 43 bell and the T-103 got the 72 bell clone. The 38B .459 bore continued for a time as the T-104. Also, an LT-101 lightweight version was released a bit later. In 2000, the LT-101 was on its way out and 100 LT-101 bodies were combined with standard weight 37 bells to make the TM-2000s, which were so well received that the design was continued in 2001 as the T-105.

Holton went back & forth between amado and standard water keys over the years on these. The lack of one on the dump slide on third is faithful reproduction of the Bach design. (They made an exception around the time of the TM-2000 and did put one on that)

The ”GT” designation is unusual, and I only see these coming from overseas. Specifically, I have only seen it on horns being sold by a specific company in Japan, and applied to both the 1981 T-10X horns and the post-2000 versions that have only one main brace. These only appear as serial 87XXXX instruments (right around the point at which the bracing changed) and only as T-102 and T-103 (no 37s). I have seen also both receivers marked T-10X and marked just Holton on these, which is odd given the very close serial numbers between those in both the case of the bracing and the receiver. The stop screw on the third valve slide is inconsistent with T-10X horns of any vintage I have seen from US sources. The Bach stop rod remained in use on T-10X horns until the end of Holton in 2007. There do not appear to be scars from prior stop rod posts or a brace in the original position now occupied by that screw. I can only offer guesses as to reasons.

1) Maybe Holton leveraged its relationship with Yamaha building these in Japan for Japan
2) Maybe this company selling these is rebuilding them from parts
3) Maybe Holton made these in the US for export, tailoring the details to Asian tastes

I have not been able to get a good look at the markings on the back of second valve on any of these. If the “G” and the “S” appear to be added symmetrically at either end of “T102” there over “USA”, then I would lean toward these being a product of the seller. If not though, then they must have been a brief experiment.

Thank you!
Your statement is consistent with the results I get form searching "GT102S" on Google. Most results are in Japanese and maybe Chinese.
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
I have not been able to get a good look at the markings on the back of second valve on any of these. If the “G” and the “S” appear to be added symmetrically at either end of “T102” there over “USA”, then I would lean toward these being a product of the seller. If not though, then they must have been a brief experiment.


The “G” is perfectly aligned and the “S” is not marked.

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mrhappy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
First, it is important to note that there was more than one “T-102”. The first in 1965 was based on the Model 50 “Medium bore” that had been released in 1962 and was extended (with some minor changes and going from 2 models to 4) following the 1965 sale to Leblanc as T-101, T-102, T-103 & T-104. These were Conn 38B inspired horns unrelated to the later T-10X series based on a 1981 Elkhart Bach purchased locally, dis-assembled, and measured at the old Martin plant.

The 1981 T-10X series consisted of the T-101 that was the clone of the Bach purchased (with different threads and a slight difference in the piston mass & length) which was a 37. Then the T-102 was the same with a 43 bell and the T-103 got the 72 bell clone. The 38B .459 bore continued for a time as the T-104. Also, an LT-101 lightweight version was released a bit later. In 2000, the LT-101 was on its way out and 100 LT-101 bodies were combined with standard weight 37 bells to make the TM-2000s, which were so well received that the design was continued in 2001 as the T-105.

Holton went back & forth between amado and standard water keys over the years on these. The lack of one on the dump slide on third is faithful reproduction of the Bach design. (They made an exception around the time of the TM-2000 and did put one on that)

The ”GT” designation is unusual, and I only see these coming from overseas. Specifically, I have only seen it on horns being sold by a specific company in Japan, and applied to both the 1981 T-10X horns and the post-2000 versions that have only one main brace. These only appear as serial 87XXXX instruments (right around the point at which the bracing changed) and only as T-102 and T-103 (no 37s). I have seen also both receivers marked T-10X and marked just Holton on these, which is odd given the very close serial numbers between those in both the case of the bracing and the receiver. The stop screw on the third valve slide is inconsistent with T-10X horns of any vintage I have seen from US sources. The Bach stop rod remained in use on T-10X horns until the end of Holton in 2007. There do not appear to be scars from prior stop rod posts or a brace in the original position now occupied by that screw. I can only offer guesses as to reasons.

1) Maybe Holton leveraged its relationship with Yamaha building these in Japan for Japan
2) Maybe this company selling these is rebuilding them from parts
3) Maybe Holton made these in the US for export, tailoring the details to Asian tastes

I have not been able to get a good look at the markings on the back of second valve on any of these. If the “G” and the “S” appear to be added symmetrically at either end of “T102” there over “USA”, then I would lean toward these being a product of the seller. If not though, then they must have been a brief experiment.



C'mon OldSchool... Is that all you've got??? We need some REAL info here!!

WOW!!!
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I'm not familiar with the T-102, I've owned two T-101's (still have one).
They are indeed Bach clones which play very well. I remember reading that
they might have used Mt. Vernon tooling? In any case, both I've played are
consistant with a balanced and vibrant sound.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamahaguy wrote:
While I'm not familiar with the T-102, I've owned two T-101's (still have one).
They are indeed Bach clones which play very well. I remember reading that
they might have used Mt. Vernon tooling? In any case, both I've played are
consistant with a balanced and vibrant sound.


The Holton-Bach tooling relationship actually went the other way. When Holton was shut down, the only surviving twin to the bell hydroforming machine used by Bach today was at Holton and was transferred to the Bach plant. The T-101 was made from the measurements of an Elkhart Bach (It's a 180, most of the Mt. Vernons 1954-Nov. 1962 were not 180s, though there were 180s built at Mt. Vernon Nov. 1962-Dec. 1964). The T-101 tooling was Holtons - and that leads to a problem when people try to forcibly replace Holton caps with Bach ones - the threads do not match!
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The 1981 T-10X series consisted of the T-101 that was the clone of the Bach purchased (with different threads and a slight difference in the piston mass & length)


Also, the difference in the piston means that Bach valve guides do not work on the 1980s T-10x series.
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what I found in a thread from three years ago:

jstar wrote:
The T101 was a copy of a Bach Strad 37 bell 25 lead pipe 459/460 bore.The T102 was aT101 459/460 bore with a different lead pipe ,slightly rounder and larger tuning slide crook and a slightly longer 3rd slide. It had the same 37 bell as the T101. The measurements for the T102 mouth pipe were provided by Global, our Japanese distributor.They worked with us to develop GT102 and GT103. The "G" in front of the "T" stood for Global distributors only.Non Global versions had a "T" only. The GT/T 103 used the T102 lead pipe but in the reversed style and the bell was an MF bell. A great full sounding horn.

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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

abundrefo wrote:
Here's what I found in a thread from three years ago:

jstar wrote:
... The measurements for the T102 mouth pipe were provided by Global, our Japanese distributor.They worked with us to develop GT102 and GT103. The "G" in front of the "T" stood for Global distributors only.Non Global versions had a "T" only. The GT/T 103 used the T102 lead pipe but in the reversed style and the bell was an MF bell. A great full sounding horn.

--------------------------------------------
To me, it's still very unclear about what the 'development' of the GT102 and GT103 entailed, and the differences between the 'G' and 'non-G' versions.
Maybe just cosmetic changes for a particular market area?

Jay
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The ”GT” designation is unusual, and I only see these coming from overseas. Specifically, I have only seen it on horns being sold by a specific company in Japan, and applied to both the 1981 T-10X horns and the post-2000 versions that have only one main brace. These only appear as serial 87XXXX instruments (right around the point at which the bracing changed) and only as T-102 and T-103 (no 37s).

I asked the seller about the serial number and it is 894XXX
Can you guess the year?

It has two braces with the Holton symbol on the first brace.

I'll go to the store next friday to check it out.
I'll let you know how it plays.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
abundrefo wrote:
Here's what I found in a thread from three years ago:

jstar wrote:
... The measurements for the T102 mouth pipe were provided by Global, our Japanese distributor.They worked with us to develop GT102 and GT103. The "G" in front of the "T" stood for Global distributors only.Non Global versions had a "T" only. The GT/T 103 used the T102 lead pipe but in the reversed style and the bell was an MF bell. A great full sounding horn.

--------------------------------------------
To me, it's still very unclear about what the 'development' of the GT102 and GT103 entailed, and the differences between the 'G' and 'non-G' versions.
Maybe just cosmetic changes for a particular market area?

Jay


I have only had 37 belled versions, so now I am curious to see a 102 or 103 in person and get some measurements. While the bulk of internet chatter has always supported the 43/72 bell story, the source for this quote is impeccably credentialed on this topic.

I notice that the GT-103s that have appeared on the market are not reversed however, and if that is an MF bell, it would have to be one of the ML bore ones (bell tail does not look like the .468 MF bell).

From what I can see, I suspect that the G prefix does indeed correlate to cosmetics from & for the overseas market at the time.
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abundrefo wrote:
OldSchoolEuph wrote:
The ”GT” designation is unusual, and I only see these coming from overseas. Specifically, I have only seen it on horns being sold by a specific company in Japan, and applied to both the 1981 T-10X horns and the post-2000 versions that have only one main brace. These only appear as serial 87XXXX instruments (right around the point at which the bracing changed) and only as T-102 and T-103 (no 37s).

I asked the seller about the serial number and it is 894XXX
Can you guess the year?

It has two braces with the Holton symbol on the first brace.

I'll go to the store next friday to check it out.
I'll let you know how it plays.


Unfortunately, Holton serial numbers are useless after 1981. I suspect these are post-2000, or spanning the millennium - but that is based on them appearing in both single braced and double braced variants (the double being the original design before some cost cutting post-2000)
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1975 Olds Recording R-20
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abundrefo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

abundrefo wrote:
I'll go to the store next friday to check it out.
I'll let you know how it plays.

The valves of the GT102 trumpet were not in a very good shape and I didn't like the way it played. Not what I was expecting.

I ended up buying a very good intermediate level Yamaha trumpet from the 80's.
I'll start a topic about it later, because it's a very interesting instrument.

Thank you for all the help and information about the GT102
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