Mpc Gap... I can't tell the difference

[Turkle]

It's long been my experience that tiny modifications to a trumpet can make a pretty big difference in how it plays and/or responds. Here are some things that have made a big difference on my current horns:

-Heavy valve cap on 3rd valve
-Adjusting water key screw tension (seriously!!)
-Adding/removing rubber bands on 1st and 3rd valve slides
-Synthetic material vs. natural cork in valves and water keys
-Metal vs. plastic valve guides
-Precision valve alignment (particularly on small-bore instruments)
-Shape/bore/material of the tuning slide
-Brace adjustment (removable braces, etc.)

So with all the above in mind, I was pretty excited to try the Reeves Sleeves system on my trusty Curry 3C. I figured, I've dialed in the rest of the horn the way I like it, why not go after the gap? I had a new Curry 3C. cut for sleeves, and bought Reeves Sleeves adapters in half-steps from 3.0 through 6.0.

I've been fussing with it on and off for months now, and I absolutely cannot tell the difference between sleeves! Even when I switch from the 3.0 to the 6.0, it seems to make absolutely no difference in the intonation, response, or sound of the instrument, in any register!

I was shocked by this because, as I note above, I have messed around with all sorts of modifications to my horns and think I am very sensitive to small changes. But I absolutely cannot tell the difference one bit when I change the mouthpiece gap. I understand that many great players on this forum swear by them, but I simply cannot perceive any difference or benefit between different gaps.

I wonder if it's just my horn (8310z) is not gap-sensitive?

Anyway, just thought I'd share. Weird, right??
_________________
Yamaha 8310Z trumpet
Yamaha 8310Z flugel
Curry 3.

[JVL]

hello
did you also play in front of players/friends to (blind) test ?

[dstpt]

Well, I'd have to join your camp. I'm sure there is a difference with gap changes. It seems to make itself more obvious to some but maybe not to all, depending on horn selection, blow, and any other factor you can throw in. In all fairness, I think it would have been best for me if I'd just had an existing mouthpiece trimmed down for sleeves rather than trying new mouthpieces with various sleeves. Yeah, so I guess I'm not the best candidate to add to this discussion, but although I could tell maybe a little difference with sleeve changes, I could not tell much. I do believe it is a valid adjustment we can entertain and try to help our individual blow, but I wish it was more obvious...to me. You have made a lot of adjustments. I wonder if making the gap change one of your first adjustments would have made it more obvious? IOW, if the horn is "worse off," would initial adjustments be something that would show up more readily, but the latter adjustments to not show up as easily? Hmmm....

[OldSchoolEuph]

Sometimes, often times, these elements that place mass in the system (or in the case of the cork material resist leakage at certain frequencies) usually make a difference, as does the geometry of the slide in particular. But, there are exceptions to every rule.

When it comes to the gap, some horns, some mouthpieces, and particularly the combination of piece and horn can be very sensitive, or immune to the difference. There were a great many horns, and I mean top notch horns of their era, built without a ledge in the receiver at all (Holton Revelations including the Llewellyn for instance), and play just fine. Another Holton, the remarkably obscure but beyond this gimmick also remarkably good, Holton T-100X has an adjustable receiver that lets you really play with different mouthpieces and adjusting the gap. The effect varies with player and piece.

Like a valve alignment, sometimes the nodal points work out to make it critical, others, irrelevant. The same is true of the gap.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[maynard-46]

Funny how we are all different!!! I've been going thru this for the past 2-3 months and had purchased about 15-16 Reeves Sleeves in increments of a 1/4 size. I put ALOT of time in to experimenting as I have 3 different Bb's that I use and they all gap severely different!! I also use the Warburton gap tool that, for me, works as I know right where my "sweet spot" is...or exactly how far I want the shank to enter the receiver and get a specific gap. That being said I'm NOT a player that normally fools around with things like this...either the piece works OR it doesn't work! But I DO feel that the "gap" can make a HUGE difference depending on the horn/mouthpiece combo PLUS what kind of blow/sound/resistance that I'm after. Bottom line...YES...I CAN feel and hear a difference when switching sleeves even if it's only a 1/4 size! Plus...if the blow gets TOO free or TOO resistant it helps to narrow down the range of sleeve sizes that have a chance to work for me. "Different strokes for" I guess!! Good luck everybody!

Butch
_________________
TRUMPE: YAMAHA Lacq. "Shew Gen II" / Legends .585 "CatMaster" Top / KT "TKO" BB / Reeves #5.75 Sleeve.
FLUGELHORN: ADAMS Custom "F1" / Legends .585 "CatMaster FL.

[Turkle]

[dstpt]

[brassmusician]

Another thing you could try is to measure the accuracy of tuning through the range of the horn at each gap setting. I remember seeing a video on the Stomvi website where they had used a tuner and created a graph showing flat/intune/sharp tendencies with pitch. The best gap had the best alignment of tuning throughout the range of the instrument.
_________________
Cannonball 789RL
Yamaha 635ST
Yamaha 16C4
Wick 2BFL

[Turkle]

[maynard-46]

dstpt

[Richard III]

[ProAm]

I got a Reeves sleeved piece around 30 yrs ago with sleeves 2 - 6, I believe. I never could tell a difference and just used the 4 as it was in the middle of those I had. Used in a Bach 37 Bb.

[Louise Finch]

Hi

I definitely do think that some trumpets are more gap sensitive than others. For me sleeves make a real difference. My personal preference is for less gap, and I find decreasing the gap opens the blow and loosens the slots. Maybe it is just a factor of opening the blow, but I find the upper register easier as well. I'm not saying that I have more range, rather that the upper register seems more free blowing, which I find makes it speak more easily for me, and when I say upper register, I'm referring to between the top of the stave and just over high C, as I don't need to play anything higher than the high Eb in the 1st movement of the Haydn on Bb.

I've experimented with Jim New's gap adjuster, considering insertion amount rather than gap per sec. I've found that my Xeno II plays best for me, more open in feel and even in sound, with a 25mm insertion amount, and that things deteriorate for me if the insertion amount varies much for this. When the insertion amount gets below 24mm, I find my Xeno II stuffy in feel and even sound, with a more difficult upper register.

However my Bach 37 is far less critical regarding gap, and plays well with a large range of gaps, just becoming more open in blow and looser in slotting as you reduce the gap.

My Boosey and Hawkes Oxford is my most gap critical trumpet. There is definite wow point when this trumpet absolutely comes alive in your hands.

This is my personal experience and I also notice small things. Regarding the OP, I imagine that his personal trumpet is one that plays well with a larger range of gaps and/or this particular area is just something which he as a player is not so sensitive about. If this last point is true, I don't think this says anything at all about the abilities of the OP or his sensitives to small changes, only that possibly for him, variations in gap are not so important.

My personal opinion would however be that it is a factor of the trumpet not the player, as my three trumpets differ in how much difference experimenting with mouthpiece gap makes.

All the best

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

[jazz_trpt]

When I was playing with sleeves I found the most notable difference for me was changes in slotting.
_________________
Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions!

[grune]

odd, for my Bach 37 + 1.5C, the gap makes a difference. no gap is best. people tell me the sound is fuller, more powerful, more resonant. for me, the feel is more open, easier to blow, and intervals [eg fourths] are easier. I shaved the m/p shank to achieve the no gap: perhaps this accounts for the improvement. I haven't shaved any other m/p's, so cannot comment if no gap would be best for them. but the combo of Bach37 + 1.5Cm/p + no gap seems to be the perfect setup for me and horn.
_________________
Bach Stradivarius, 180S37 (Silver Model 37 Bb), ML75618, purchased new in 1972.

[boog]

If I am not mistaken, I seem to remember that Mr. Schilke advocated no gap.

Extra weight, such as valve caps and mouthpieces, makes the horn behave better on certain notes, for me at least. But, It's not a deal killer if it is stock caps and/or mouthpieces. I primarily use heavy caps to extend the casings to give me an optional place to hold the horn, especially when doing high/loud gigs. Plus, it sits better in my left hand with extra weight. My old 24b Selmer has lengthy cases on the valves, so this is not an issue with it.

Play the dang horn and deal with it...including the "gap". In the heat of a performance, you will never know...you've got more stuff to worry about than the protrusion of the mouthpiece into the lead pipe.