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nOt_vInCe_penZarelLa New Member
Joined: 04 Feb 2019 Posts: 3 Location: New Jersey
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:07 am Post subject: von Karajan trumpet doubling on Tchaickovsky |
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Is von Karajan known for doubling trumpets (using 4 instead of just 2) on tchaick stuff? In videos it seems like he does this. Been listening to a bunch of tchaick recordings and the von Karajan ones always stand out because in big tuttis or trumpet soli, the trumpets absolutely lay waste to the orchestra.
https://youtu.be/tnyC2uwJ4qg?t=825 (Romeo and Juliet Overture)
https://youtu.be/cnXd4ZqN_c8?t=2410 (4th symphony mvt 4)
You can barely hear the strings or winds in these...
Any specific reason for this? Sounds good, but it's just very different from other recordings. I'm hesitant to listen to them bc I could get the wrong idea about the balance most conductors are looking for. Should one take these recordings with a grain of salt?
Thanks. |
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trumpetera Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 1210 Location: Gothenburg,Sweden
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:57 am Post subject: |
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There is an interresting article with Martin Kretzer, solo trumpet in Berlin Phil during some of their ”Karajan-years” in the latest Brass Herald.
They doubled Mahler too, among others... _________________ Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1799 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:05 am Post subject: |
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The practice of having big romantic trumpet parts doubled in German orchestras (and not just them) has been around for a long time, with part of the idea being that two FF trumpets tend to sound hot and angry whereas four "mFF" trumpets sound rich and broad. Since Tchaikovsky routinely writes parts that balance two trumpets against four low brasses, or the whole horn section, this helps to get a better sense of commonality of sound and balance between the sections.
At least in the Symphony 4 link you provided, I have to wonder how the mic placement (and/or mixing) influenced the balance because the trumpets don't just sound loud - they sound close, and the strings sound distant. (Even relative to the woodwinds in the earlier parts.)
When I was at McGill, Ed Carroll frequently told us to interpret Fs in big romantic pieces as meaning "beautiful", FF as "more beautiful", and FFF as "even more beautiful", which I think is good advice here. If you aim for big, rich, beautiful and sonorous sounds, you'll be standing on solid ground, and the conductor will let you know where they want you balance-wise. |
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Jerry Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 2157 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Several years ago, the NY Phil played Tchaikovsky 4 in San Diego. They also doubled the trumpet parts. |
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trumpetera Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Nov 2005 Posts: 1210 Location: Gothenburg,Sweden
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Taking the modern ”trombonism” into account, maybe it’s good thing on ALL music... _________________ Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural |
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Danbassin Veteran Member
Joined: 13 Oct 2013 Posts: 460 Location: Idyllwild, CA
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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HvK regularly doubled instruments, achieving something of a uniform, burnished (late-romantic) tutti sound in music of all periods.
4 trpts in Beethoven symphonies, and regularly doubling the winds on those symphonies, all the way up through Bruckner. Please keep in mind that this was by no means an unusual practice for a conductor of his generation -
***and a wonderful topic of research would document instrumentation counts for historic ensembles through the late-romantic period - perhaps with the hypothesis that Mahler/Strauss, etc. didn't so much double the number of trumpet Players, rather they decided to write increasingly independent scoring for the auxiliary/reinforcing players. Our understanding of the unique role(s) of 3rd, and 5th/6th trumpet parts in Mahler, for example, could deepen a great deal from an exegesis of such doctoral fodder.***
-Search out a DG/Unitell Beethoven cycle Karajan made in the late 60s/early 70s. While most of these Humphrey Burton-era films make liberal use of pre-arranged concert-like shots mimed to a studio recording, I have the feeling that this particular HvK/Berlin Beethoven cycle (he recorded many) catches their best qualities, in terms of ensemble sound and precision. Beyond that, there's a sonic/cinematic achievement in this cycle, with each symphony shot on sound stages with elaborately-varied ensemble set-ups. The 'Eroica' in particular is remarkable, with a high-def orchestra layout: three arrangements of instruments in front of HvK: Left, Center, and Right, each stacked Many levels of risers high. --- Think old 'wall of sound' Motown studio set-ups, but with stark set design and some...bold doubling choices: I recall TWO sets of timpani used on this piece!
I'm interested to see where this discussion leads!
Happy practicing, happy researching ---
-DB _________________ Daniel Bassin
Conductor/Composer/Trumpeter/Improviser/Educator
I play:
Monette - CORNETTE/PranaXLT-STC Bb/MC-35/Raja A Picc;
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MPCs - Monette Unity 1-7D and DM4LD |
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mhenrikse Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jul 2009 Posts: 162
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Jerry wrote: | Several years ago, the NY Phil played Tchaikovsky 4 in San Diego. They also doubled the trumpet parts. |
The FFF and FFFF parts? |
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O00Joe Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 364 Location: Houston & Austin, Texas
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:04 am Post subject: |
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I don't remember where but I read/heard it is to sort of "soften" Tchaikovsky's "harshly" written trumpet parts. Octaves don't sound as good when it's just two players or something along those lines. I imagine the real answer is above.
I never knew that about doubling on romantic repertoire in the past. It would drive me nuts to be doubled in an orchestra but that's what I'm used to.
The Vienna trumpeters sound really damn good there. When Hans Gansch was principal during the '80s and '90s, their trumpet section was phenomenal. Only the principal trumpet is doubled for tutti sections in the Bernstein/Mahler DVDs. To me, that's probably the last voice that needs to be doubled but it makes sense with the "doubling = more beauty" mentality.
I'd be interested in research about writing for 3rd, 5th, etc. trumpets. It seems like some composers of the period treated them in pairs similar to the horn section. IE 1st & 2nd, 3rd & 4th, 5th & 6th. _________________ 1981 Bb Bach Stradivarius 37/25 ML raw - Laskey 60C
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Lukarino Regular Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2017 Posts: 37 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:16 am Post subject: |
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I appreciate these recordings as principal of a youth symphony where we are forced to TRIPLE each part (more tuition money for the symphony, perhaps?), it gives me an example to show the section to strive towards. We happen to to be playing the Romeo and Juliet right now. |
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ltkije1966 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2007 Posts: 1229 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 6:05 am Post subject: |
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The recording of Tchaik 4 Boston/Bernstein from the 70 has the trumpets doubled! Maybe it was more common 20 or 30 years ago than it is now.
Great shot of Ghitalla at 38:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2JBT0HC98I _________________ Scott Kuehn |
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Trompette111 Regular Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2019 Posts: 41 Location: Germany/UK
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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In Germany it is very usual to have two players on the first part. In big music like Beethoven symphonies we can double both parts. I think that this is what is happening here! |
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