Brass vs. Silver Horns

Stutrumpet · Regular Member Joined: 24 Nov 2018 Posts: 48

Having just returned from trying out a range of Bach Strads I thought I'd repeat what the store owner (and he's a pro player) told me.

You'll find more difference between any 2 or 3 Bachs of the same model than you will between silver or lacquer. This is due to them being handmade.

I tried different models (all silver plated) and there was a huge difference between reverse and non-reverse leadpipe models. I found the reverse leadpipe on ML37 and ML43 best. The 'London' model (non-reverse) will be good for orchestral work where a big sound is needed.

The advice he gave re silver plating included his view that any repairs or modifications looked better. I have a Schilke B1 which has only ever become a bit 'dull' if not polished for 2 years or so!!! I used to own a cheap Thomann flugelhorn which played well but tarnished badly very quickly.

So, silver plating quality varies a lot. Older UK cornets for example had thicker plating than a lot of modern trumpets. Viners (an old UK cutlery manufacturer in the north of the UK) now offers a plating service where the thickness is greater than some London based repairers. With Bach trumpets I wouldn't worry about tarnishing - the plating is good.

All trumpets whether lacquer or silver will suffer if you have 'acid' sweat - fortunately I don't. This also applies to 'red-rot' which can cause serious problems in the lead pipe/main tuning slide caused by acid saliva. The guy in the store advised that this can be avoided by regular cleaning - I remember that Satchmo (Louis Armstrong to you youngn's) always rinsed through his trumpet after EVERY performance.

Dale Proctor · Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Brass vs. Silver horns

adc · Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:58 am Post subject:

Let me know if you ever have a fire sale. Bet Raytheon plays great. Reminds me of a New York Wonder or Wonderphone. My last cornet ever will be one over these.

I have an 1899 Bosey Fuchs (Austria) that probably plays similar
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Too many Old Cornets to Count

grune · Regular Member Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 67

I prefer silver. 45 years ago, the only brand that created the symphonic sound was the Bach, and the Silver Model 37 ML was in high demand: in fact, I was required to buy Bach, to join the pro orchestra. Fast forward to today though, we have now many brands making impressive, top-notch instruments. Myself, I would very carefully and extensively, over many weeks, trial all the brands to determine which brand and model were best for me; using open eyes, ears, and mind. I would not be surprised if the Bach was not my 1st choice.
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Bach Stradivarius, 180S37 (Silver Model 37 Bb), ML75618, purchased new in 1972.

shofarguy · Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:56 am Post subject:

Since the time of this thread, I've done a lot of in-depth listening to various horns with differing finishes, materials and designs. I've played them and listened, I've played them an enlisted others to listen and I've listened to others play them. What have I learned?

Retlaw is right! Walter Dirks is a TH member who is also a professional photojournalist. If you remember his posts, you might recognize his signature, which goes something like, "It's amazing how much we listen with our eyes."

Over and over again in this thread, posters have written that silver plated horns are brighter than lacquered horns. The one or two that cite comparisons and dates of manufacture refer to vintage or almost antique instruments, so they are referring to nitro-cellulose lacquer and I will agree with them. But, it just ain't so with today's synthetic finishes. Over and over and over again, I've compared clear finish and silver plated horns of the same design and time of manufacture and every time the clear finish sounds lighter than the silver plated horn, as far as the player is concerned. Out in front of the horn, no one is going to tell the difference without looking.

Material differences are also presented as making a difference. Rose or gold brass and copper are said to produce a more mellow sound. I will agree that the gold brass Yamaha trumpets I've played made a different (I'd call it "dead" ) sound than brass bells, but those were student horns and who knows what the real reason is... With the other horns it was not so clear cut.
It's true that brass produces the most dense core, but it's usually darker to my ears than coper. Gold brass (bronze, if you will) can have a very slight ragged harshness to it. Hand wrought copper has more mid-range overtones and so sounds lighter to me than brass.

So you know, the samples I'm citing are Kanstul 1500/1500-A; 1525 and a Kanstul 1525 with Cortois bracing and bronze bell; Kanstul 1025s in brass/silver and copper/ lacquer; Wild Thing MkI in silver and brass; WT MkII in brass/silver and copper/lacquer; WT flugelhorn in brass/silver, brass/lacquer, copper/lacquer and copper/raw. The raw copper flugelhorn produces the lightest timbre of all. The brass silver consistently gives the heaviest timbre. Every horn, every design, every time.

Even if I switch my brass/silver #1-J tuning slide with my one-of-a-kind copper/lacquer #1-J tuning slide, the result is consistent. The copper slide is lighter with more midrange overtones in the sound. The brass/silver slide gives a larger, darker and heavier timbre. I can hear it behind the bell, off the walls, in a recording and when someone else plays the horn.

Edit:
The only exception I can think of was two separate WT Shepherds Crook cornets a few years apart, one brass/silver and the other copper/lacquer. In this case, my memory tells me the copper horn was heavier and darker sounding. I might call it dull, except that it wasn't. The real gem was that particular brass/silver cornet I played a few years before. It was light, lithe and just the most amazing instrument I've ever played. Wish I'd been able to buy that one...
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

LittleRusty · Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Brass vs. Silver horns

Brad361 · Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Brass vs. Silver horns

LittleRusty · Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Brass vs. Silver horns

Brad361 · Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Brass vs. Silver horns

LittleRusty · Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:07 pm Post subject:

I remember debating “handmade” Benges vs the Bachs built with “automation” back in the 70’s. It didn’t make much sense to me back then.

Brad361 · Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:58 pm Post subject:

grune · Regular Member Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 67

LittleRusty · Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:50 pm Post subject:

Something in my body’s chemistry ate through both the silver and underlying metal removing silver and creating pits that required filling before resilvering. Some people who don’t know better might call this tarnish, but it certainly is not.

I have always heard that the sweat in one’s hands causes pitting, but never have heard why. After doing a little googling I found that in addition to sulphur, silver will also combine with chlorine producing AgCl. This appears to be a relatively common issue with silver salt shakers. Perhaps the salts in our sweat are causing it?

One other thought is that silver is seldom pure and perhaps the impurities are what is reacting.

shofarguy · Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:51 am Post subject:

One of the oddest stories I ever heard from Zig Kanstul was one he told me when I was working on the nano-coatings project about 6 years ago. We wanted to test our coating in the hands of someone who had corrosive body chemistry.

I told Zig what I wanted to do and he said, "Find a red-head!" I looked at him incredulously and asked, "Really?" Then, he told of a trumpet player from years ago that everyone called "Red." He had brilliant red hair and Zig said his hands were so corrosive that they would actually eat holes through the piston casings of a trumpet in two months!
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

grune · Regular Member Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 67

Ortrouvere · Regular Member Joined: 10 Aug 2018 Posts: 12

In my opinion the finish is more of an asthetic thing. The tone differences between the types of finishes are pretty nominal.

I've played many different horns; Adams, John Packer, Schagerl, Andreas Eastman, Bach, Conn. With different finishes and saw very subtle differences.

Silver, copper, satin, antique, plain unfinished, combinations. It's more up to what type/brand of horn you prefer and the mouthpiece you use.

Yamahaguy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 09 Dec 2004 Posts: 3992

Everything affects everything...there is a definite difference.

grune · Regular Member Joined: 04 Mar 2019 Posts: 67

blbaumgarn · Heavyweight Member Joined: 26 Jul 2017 Posts: 705

I have owned 2 laquered trumpets, on nickle plated 36b, and two silver plated trumpets. For me the laquer was going to show signs of wear and knicking before the silver plated horns. Same with the nickel plating. After 11 years of hard use the Conn 36b had nickel that sort of flaked off. Not seriously but some. The laquered horns showed signs of wear and were only 2-3 years old. I don't think it would matter to me now what finish the horn had if I enjoyed playing it. Most of the horn manufacturers offer laquer, silver plate and some gold. I have had my best luck with silver and ease of care goes with that. As far as mass produced vs. hand made horns what does it really matter how much is individually vs. mass produced if the instrument has the sound and look of the breed? Bach makes magnificent horns, so does Yamaha. I recently was told by a Bach performing artist that Yamaha has the best quality control in the industry. That speaks for something. Bach horns overwhelmingly sound like BACH horns, that is why people love 'em. We ask questions that often have no definitive answer. It is part of human nature to want to know and to want what is best I guess.
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"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush