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gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Yea, the ICSOM & ROPA wage charts are out there. Management gets them and everybody knows what everybody else is making sans their personal contracts.
So, my comment about public knowledge of wages was me whining! Based on my experience during the Detroit Symphony strike, the public had a hard time understanding why a viola player would get paid at all for playing music.
It gets very nasty. This forum is pretty tame.
Cheers,
Gordon Stump _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student |
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Don Herman rev2 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 03 May 2005 Posts: 8951 Location: Monument, CO
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:17 am Post subject: |
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Please leave off the "concentration of wealth" discussions and stick to the CSO... This is not the place to debate policies, politics, wealth (re)distribution, and all that jazz. _________________ "After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley |
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hup_d_dup Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Posts: 288 Location: Tewksbury, NJ
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:22 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: |
Kenneth Griffin has no obligation to support the CSO. For all we know he generously supports charities and non-profits and one of those may be the CSO. Why assume otherwise? If he wants to pay $238 million for a penthouse in NYC that's his business, not ours. Who has the right to begrudge him the privilege of doing with his money whatever it pleases him to do? And who's to say that his success hasn't been enormously beneficial to his employees as well?
" |
Please read my post more carefully. I did not say Mr. Griffin cannot spend his money as he chooses. I did not say he doesn't support charities. I do say he has a lot of money. I do say that he is a potential "other source" that non-profits must seek for funding. That is where the money is.
Hup |
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hup_d_dup Veteran Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2009 Posts: 288 Location: Tewksbury, NJ
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Don Herman rev2 wrote: | Please leave off the "concentration of wealth" discussions and stick to the CSO... This is not the place to debate policies, politics, wealth (re)distribution, and all that jazz. |
I understand your concern. The problem is that it is difficult to talk about money being taken away without talking about where it went.
Hup |
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gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Full disclosure:
I have helped negotiate over 400 million dollars in musicians' wages during my time in the barrel as president of Local 5 in Detroit and nationally for the AFM.
Back in the early days we would talk about how playing music at the highest levels was not a business, it was a leap of faith. How it was circular logic: Art follows the money and money follows the art.
Around 12 years go that strategy was over. Orchestra CEOs approached the orchestra business as a quasi for profit business. I believe there was a national approach that the public really does not feel the difference between a top ten orchestra and a top 25 orchestra. In Detroit they said as much.
I believe the CSO Musicians will prevail. I cannot believe Ford Motor Company would compete for upper managers by offering a crappy pension. These heros are way above the pay grade of upper management even though they get paid like skilled trade factory workers.
Everything here in the Motor City is seen through the automotive lens. Can't help it!!
Gordon Stump _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student |
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deleted_user_48e5f31 New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:34 am Post subject: Another perspective |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:30 am Post subject: |
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I saw a quote saying that the CSO actually loses money on every performance in terms of ticket sales vs. direct cost of the performance. The implication was that every time a performance is cancelled because of the strike the CSO actually comes out better financially than if the performance happened. I wonder how this impacts management's negotiation strategy. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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gstump Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 934
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:07 am Post subject: |
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No. A strike is a war. Lots of damage on both sides. Fundraising slows way down. Donors get spooked for fear of being accused of supporting the war effort for management.
I really riled up things here when I asked the Ford Foundation to cease sending money until the strike was over. Even our little conductor went after me. Oh, well. _________________ Schilke B5
Couesnon Flug (1967)
Funk Brothers Horn Section/Caruso Student |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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gstump wrote: | No. A strike is a war. Lots of damage on both sides. Fundraising slows way down. Donors get spooked for fear of being accused of supporting the war effort for management.
I really riled up things here when I asked the Ford Foundation to cease sending money until the strike was over. Even our little conductor went after me. Oh, well. |
If there's lots of damage on both sides does anyone really come out ahead at the end? Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to just flip a coin? Sun Tzu would be appalled. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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roccotrumpetsiffredi Veteran Member
Joined: 04 Jul 2015 Posts: 169
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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I’m with the musicians, they deserve more way more.
It’s not their fault that the world is dumber than ever despite all our technological progress.
I believe it’s just a cycle, smart will be cool again, sort of has to for he surviveL of humanity.
It’s the world that does not appreciate he art. I mean think how successful the Kardashian’s are with NO talent:). You know what I mean? |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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roccotrumpetsiffredi wrote: | I’m with the musicians, they deserve more way more.
It’s not their fault that the world is dumber than ever despite all our technological progress.
I believe it’s just a cycle, smart will be cool again, sort of has to for he surviveL of humanity.
It’s the world that does not appreciate he art. I mean think how successful the Kardashian’s are with NO talent:). You know what I mean? |
The musicians are being paid $160,000+ annually. That means they make more than about 95% of the American public. How much more do they "deserve" and why do they deserve it? Just wondering how you reached the conclusion that the musicians "deserve more way more." _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Miketpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 559 Location: Seattle, Washington USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: |
The musicians are being paid $160,000+ annually. That means they make more than about 95% of the American public. How much more do they "deserve" and why do they deserve it? Just wondering how you reached the conclusion that the musicians "deserve more way more." |
95% of the American public aren’t experts in their fields, especially a field as competitive as orchestral music.
Mike |
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JoeLoeffler Veteran Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 243
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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If you consider how highly most professional athletes are compensated, they make absolutely nothing. They are at the pinnacle of their professional field, having trained and sacrificed for years and are held to an unbelievably high standard by the public, the press, and their peers yet they make the kind of salary an unremarkable dentist in Chicago might take in. |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Miketpt wrote: | HERMOKIWI wrote: |
The musicians are being paid $160,000+ annually. That means they make more than about 95% of the American public. How much more do they "deserve" and why do they deserve it? Just wondering how you reached the conclusion that the musicians "deserve more way more." |
95% of the American public aren’t experts in their fields, especially a field as competitive as orchestral music.
Mike |
OK, Mike. So, how much should they be paid? What do you think is reasonable? _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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JoeLoeffler wrote: | If you consider how highly most professional athletes are compensated, they make absolutely nothing. They are at the pinnacle of their professional field, having trained and sacrificed for years and are held to an unbelievably high standard by the public, the press, and their peers yet they make the kind of salary an unremarkable dentist in Chicago might take in. |
Good point, Joe. On what basis do you think the compensation should be determined and what compensation rate do you think is reasonable for the musicians of the CSO? _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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Tpt_Guy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Jul 2004 Posts: 1101 Location: Sacramento, Ca
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | JoeLoeffler wrote: | If you consider how highly most professional athletes are compensated, they make absolutely nothing. They are at the pinnacle of their professional field, having trained and sacrificed for years and are held to an unbelievably high standard by the public, the press, and their peers yet they make the kind of salary an unremarkable dentist in Chicago might take in. |
Good point, Joe. On what basis do you think the compensation should be determined and what compensation rate do you think is reasonable for the musicians of the CSO? |
This is something determined by CSO management, same as it is in any profession. It's based on how much the employee is worth to the company and what salary the company can afford/is willing to pay.
Debating "deservedness" on an open forum does nothing but irritate the parties involved in the discussion and inspire feelings of animosity among us. Let's not go down this road. We're hotheaded enough as trumpet players. _________________ -Tom Hall-
"A good teacher protects his pupils from his own influence."
-Bruce Lee |
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Athos Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 May 2004 Posts: 805 Location: St Louis
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Tpt_Guy wrote: | HERMOKIWI wrote: | JoeLoeffler wrote: | If you consider how highly most professional athletes are compensated, they make absolutely nothing. They are at the pinnacle of their professional field, having trained and sacrificed for years and are held to an unbelievably high standard by the public, the press, and their peers yet they make the kind of salary an unremarkable dentist in Chicago might take in. |
Good point, Joe. On what basis do you think the compensation should be determined and what compensation rate do you think is reasonable for the musicians of the CSO? |
This is something determined by CSO management, same as it is in any profession. It's based on how much the employee is worth to the company and what salary the company can afford/is willing to pay.
Debating "deservedness" on an open forum does nothing but irritate the parties involved in the discussion and inspire feelings of animosity among us. Let's not go down this road. We're hotheaded enough as trumpet players. |
Reasonable compensation is not determined by management. It is determined by a conversation between the interested parties. That's what collective bargaining is. |
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Miketpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 559 Location: Seattle, Washington USA
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:13 am Post subject: |
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HERMOKIWI wrote: | Miketpt wrote: | HERMOKIWI wrote: |
The musicians are being paid $160,000+ annually. That means they make more than about 95% of the American public. How much more do they "deserve" and why do they deserve it? Just wondering how you reached the conclusion that the musicians "deserve more way more." |
95% of the American public aren’t experts in their fields, especially a field as competitive as orchestral music.
Mike |
OK, Mike. So, how much should they be paid? What do you think is reasonable? |
Obviously more than what you think is reasonable. Sounds like you'd make a good orchestra manager!
Mike |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2578
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:40 am Post subject: |
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Athos wrote: | Tpt_Guy wrote: | HERMOKIWI wrote: | JoeLoeffler wrote: | If you consider how highly most professional athletes are compensated, they make absolutely nothing. They are at the pinnacle of their professional field, having trained and sacrificed for years and are held to an unbelievably high standard by the public, the press, and their peers yet they make the kind of salary an unremarkable dentist in Chicago might take in. |
Good point, Joe. On what basis do you think the compensation should be determined and what compensation rate do you think is reasonable for the musicians of the CSO? |
This is something determined by CSO management, same as it is in any profession. It's based on how much the employee is worth to the company and what salary the company can afford/is willing to pay.
Debating "deservedness" on an open forum does nothing but irritate the parties involved in the discussion and inspire feelings of animosity among us. Let's not go down this road. We're hotheaded enough as trumpet players. |
Reasonable compensation is not determined by management. It is determined by a conversation between the interested parties. That's what collective bargaining is. |
I would suggest that reasonable compensation is determined by the market as a whole and that conversations between the interested parties occur within the context of that market.
If employees feel under-compensated they are free to test the market by searching for alternate opportunities which compensate them at a level they feel is satisfactory.
If management feels that employees are over-compensated they are free to test the market by searching for alternate employees who can and will perform the job satisfactorily and who will accept the compensation offered by management.
Reasonable compensation is a balance between the existence/nonexistence of such opportunities and the availability/non-availability of such employees.
There are far more excellent musicians competing for positions in top orchestras than there are positions available. That's an advantage for management. However, the top orchestras compete for the best of the best. That's an advantage for the employees. Reasonable compensation is the point at which those conflicting interests meet subject to the economic reality of the marketability of the orchestra as a whole. The time-honored law of supply and demand affects every aspect of "reasonable compensation."
In the case of the CSO, management is sitting on a $300,000,000 endowment. That's a big advantage for management. Management can hold out forever and they have the resources to build a great orchestra no matter what the outcome of the strike. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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