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HELP - Long-time Embouchure Struggles


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prlmnd1011
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:20 pm    Post subject: HELP - Long-time Embouchure Struggles Reply with quote

Hello all,

Like many of us, I started playing the trumpet in grade school. I unknowingly developed an uneven embouchure (maybe to keep my bell out of the music stand?). Slowly over time my mouthpiece placement moved more to the left side causing a number frustrating issues (i.e., way too much pressure, inconsistent high range, poor endurance, etc.). In high school, despite being 1st chair in Concert band and lead trumpet in jazz band, my lip would occasionally cut open, so the summer before college I knew it was time for a change.

That summer I took the mouthpiece and centered it smack dab in the middle of my embouchure and practiced 8 hours a day, every day, in front of a mirror. Though my knowledge and finger technique remained, my range and endurance plummeted and I was basically in 4th grade again. Gradually I became functional again, but didn't make jazz band my first year of college due to my chops. Throughout college I often contemplated quitting the trumpet all together, it just grew more and more frustrating.

Professionally I've actually made a name for myself as a drummer and my horn playing has totally taken the back seat over the years. Nevertheless, I still played at church weekly and did the occasional jobbing gig.

Recently, I have a renewed passion towards the horn and am determined to fix the issues I've struggled with for so long. I know it's possible to play with greater efficiency (as so many do) but I'm at a loss for how to achieve these results (at least there's YouTube). My teachers in school NEVER talked about proper air support or tried to adjust my off-center mouthpiece placement. Actually, I worry a big part of my difficulty is just my own anatomy. I have full lips and the center "v" part of my upper lip (known by various terms including the procheilon (also spelled prochilon), the "tuberculum labii superioris", and the "labial tubercle") completely blocks my aperture causing air to leak out on both sides. Where most people have a central aperture opening, I have two on either side of the closed center. The only thing I can do to get a decent sound without jamming the horn into my chops is play off center again so that some of the leaked air is directed into the mouthpiece (which is also a bit more comfortable due to my teeth and the bone structure of my face). In addition, I am still using too much pressure which no doubt contributes to my crappy endurance. Also, sometimes my teeth hurt after I play.

I know some cats had/have an "unorthodox" embouchure yet play great (i.e., Armstrong, Maynard, Faddis, Chris Botti). While I search for a knowledgable teacher/"embouchure-doctor," does anyone have some advice towards achieving a healthy, efficient, and effective embouchure? Is it possible my chops just aren't right for playing horn?

Kindly share your thoughts! Much thanks.

PS - If any of you (or someone you know) specialize in this sort of thing, and give Skype lessons, I would be super interested!


Last edited by prlmnd1011 on Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:08 am; edited 3 times in total
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epoustoufle
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your experience sounds completely normal. Don't beat yourself up Don't blame the music stand either. You did what you had to do to play the notes with no guidance and this is very much an average, normal, depressing situation for trumpet students. I had plenty of teachers and ended up in the same situation - nobody teaches mechanics, you are on your own.

Until.... ta da... the Internet! I'm going to point you to this thread (look for Billy B) and tap out. I'm not a teacher. I'm just another casualty like you. Improving day by day
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: HELP - Long-time Embouchure Struggles Reply with quote

prlmnd1011 wrote:
... I am still using too much pressure which no doubt contributes to my crappy endurance. Also, sometimes my teeth hurt after I play.
...

--------------------------------------------------------------
Both upper and lower teeth? And what about lip pain / injury?

It could be that a trumpet sized mpc just doesn't fit you. You might find playing t-bone, or euph more practical.

Jay
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JVL
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello
When we received Bobby Shew, he discussed this topic, lips shapes, and told that in such cases like yours, indeed you must play off center.
I'd suggest, to overcome your mpc pressure and stabilize your embouchure, strengthen your chops, to lip buzz with two fingers put at the contact points of the mpc.
good luck
best
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the online advice in the world will show you that you need to do something, maybe it IS moving the mouthpiece off to one side. But no one will give you the advice you NEED to make the change without seeing and hearing you.

Get a teacher. Get a good one. Get the very best you can afford. Go Skype if necessary, but do not waste your time trying to do this yourself. The results so far...

cheers

Andy
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prlmnd1011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: HELP - Long-time Embouchure Struggles Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:

Both upper and lower teeth? And what about lip pain / injury?

It could be that a trumpet sized mpc just doesn't fit you. You might find playing t-bone, or euph more practical.

Jay


Hello Jay,

I do experience pressure discomfort on the top and bottom teeth. Not so much in terms of lip pain thankfully, and never any actual injuries. I currently play a pretty big trumpet mouthpiece (Bach 1X) since anything more shallow than a C-cup and my lips bottom out on the cup bottom.


.
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agroovin48
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are many discussions about embouchure development in the forums especially under the dedicated forums. I would recommend starting with Jerome Callet and Claude Gordon.

Mr. Callet has stated that he was a frustrated player for many years and could not play a high C. Eventually he developed his embouchure method and reached heights that he never dreamed of and has since been tutoring many successful musicians in his method. I know that he is still alive and kicking since I spoke briefly with him on the phone when I ordered a new mouthpiece from him just a couple of weeks ago. You might call him and have a discussion about your issues.

Check out the discussions and see where they take you.
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Last edited by agroovin48 on Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are way over-analyzing yourself.

I give skype lessons.
bbergren1728@gmail.com to schedule.
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prlmnd1011
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:
You are way over-analyzing yourself.

I give skype lessons.
bbergren1728@gmail.com to schedule.


Billy B, one does indeed need to be able to analyze them self (and in detail) if they are seeking advice from others who are unfamiliar with their situation. Only then could others properly comprehend and effectively prescribe potential remedies.



.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

prlmnd1011 wrote:
Billy B, one does indeed need to be able to analyze them self (and in detail) if they are seeking advice from others who are unfamiliar with their situation. Only then could others properly comprehend and effectively prescribe potential remedies.

But it needs to be the correct analysis, and, if one is having all these issues, then it can be argued the lack of prior success would point to your analysis being less than accurate currently and in the past!

Go seek someone else's advice. It's not hard. I have done this and do it all the time in the brass ensemble I play in, as the other trumpet player is a terrific pedagogue who can see through to the heart of issues rather well.

cheers

Andy
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

prlmnd1011 wrote:
Billy B wrote:
You are way over-analyzing yourself.

I give skype lessons.
bbergren1728@gmail.com to schedule.


Billy B, one does indeed need to be able to analyze them self (and in detail) if they are seeking advice from others who are unfamiliar with their situation. Only then could others properly comprehend and effectively prescribe potential remedies.



.


I tend to agree with Billy B on this. If you could accurately analyze the problem and it's remedy you would have already fixed the problem. Trial and error is a great concept if you have all the time and patience in the universe. It could take years for a player to accurately analyze and implement a solution by trial and error that a competent chop doctor could resolve in 5 minutes of a question/answer/listen/demonstrate meeting. You're way ahead in terms of time and effort to just work with someone who is an expert at analyzing/diagnosing/fixing chop related issues.
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prlmnd1011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:

But it needs to be the correct analysis, and, if one is having all these issues, then it can be argued the lack of prior success would point to your analysis being less than accurate currently and in the past!

Go seek someone else's advice. It's not hard. I have done this and do it all the time in the brass ensemble I play in, as the other trumpet player is a terrific pedagogue who can see through to the heart of issues rather well.

cheers

Andy


Hello Andy, thanks for chiming in. First off, as stated in my initial post, I AM seeking an experienced instructor for these issues. I was in no way concerned with the difficulty of this task.

Second, regardless of WHO is providing the advice, I first need to be able to articulate what the problemetic symptoms are. He/she will inevitably ask anyway, since they do not physically "feel" what I am feeling. It's simply providing detailed information to receive detailed feedback. My struggles over the years in relation to my self-analysis is irrelevant. It's only NOW that I'm taking note of and looking to fix these problems. You are comparing "Past" to "Present" and they are unrelated.

I know I've hit a wall, but knowing your issues and knowing how to effectively solve them are two different things. This is why I sought advice from this online community. I fear the message of my original post has somehow become diluted as folks are now focusing on this side-tangent.


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prlmnd1011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:

I tend to agree with Billy B on this. If you could accurately analyze the problem and it's remedy you would have already fixed the problem. Trial and error is a great concept if you have all the time and patience in the universe. It could take years for a player to accurately analyze and implement a solution by trial and error that a competent chop doctor could resolve in 5 minutes of a question/answer/listen/demonstrate meeting. You're way ahead in terms of time and effort to just work with someone who is an expert at analyzing/diagnosing/fixing chop related issues.


Many shades of grey here being totally overlooked. No where in any of this now convoluted thread did I claim I accurately diagnosed myself and had the answers.

The point of the first post was to highlight years of bad habits that were permitted by the teachers I DID study with (proving that all teachers are not effective teachers). Everyone is built differently; there is no "one size fits all" solution, and perhaps, exceptions where nothing works due to one's anatomy.

Besides, as mentioned, the drums have been the main focus in my career, with trumpet being a part-time commitment. It is only NOW that I feel inspired to really fix these issues, so I AM searching for a "competent chop doctor."

It's all in the first post folks...


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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post your general locale and you might get lucky with a recommendation for a pro in your area. By way of bias, I have much more faith in in-person lessons. No disrespect for the many fine teachers who Skype/Facetime, but I hazard that even they'd agreed that nothing beats seeing and hearing up close and personal.
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prlmnd1011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Post your general locale and you might get lucky with a recommendation for a pro in your area. By way of bias, I have much more faith in in-person lessons. No disrespect for the many fine teachers who Skype/Facetime, but I hazard that even they'd agreed that nothing beats seeing and hearing up close and personal.


I'm currently in North Rhine-Westfalia, Germany. I totally agree that in-person lessons are ideal!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I highly recommend that you seek out Robert Platt, who is retired from the Berlin Philharmonic.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Daily-Fitness-Exercises-Trumpet-Robert/dp/B01AX516YA
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

prlmnd1011 wrote:
Hello Andy, thanks for chiming in. First off, as stated in my initial post, I AM seeking an experienced instructor for these issues. I was in no way concerned with the difficulty of this task.

Second, regardless of WHO is providing the advice, I first need to be able to articulate what the problemetic symptoms are. He/she will inevitably ask anyway, since they do not physically "feel" what I am feeling. It's simply providing detailed information to receive detailed feedback. My struggles over the years in relation to my self-analysis is irrelevant. It's only NOW that I'm taking note of and looking to fix these problems. You are comparing "Past" to "Present" and they are unrelated.

I know I've hit a wall, but knowing your issues and knowing how to effectively solve them are two different things. This is why I sought advice from this online community. I fear the message of my original post has somehow become diluted as folks are now focusing on this side-tangent.

Actually, this is precisely the problem. If you stop analysing and looking to explain all your needs, but go to a good teacher, trusting they will hear what you need to do, then you may end up learning. It's not only what you do not yet know as far as your setup and playing goes, it is that you do not know what the problem is. So stop trying to talk about it, it's not going to help the person you see.

I have had this many times. A prospective student who knows it all and wants XYZ help only. When it is explained that actually ABC is what needs to be looked at so the XYZ will not be an issue, many get all bent out of shape and just walk away, to continue their successful career in low achievement.

Sounds harsh, but it's true. I feel like a car salesman at times, needing to convince people that this is what they need to learn. After all:

You don't know what you don't know!


Hope you don't mind me emphasising a bit...

cheers

Andy
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To avoid wasting time consulting with people who don't have the knowledge or experience dealing with what might be an 'impossible lip & teeth setup', it would be helpful to do enough 'self analysis' to describe the 'this is what I've got going on' situation.

A teacher or working pro might be fine for helping someone with a typical 'working embouchure' that needs 'fine tuning' to become a better player, but could be clueless about how to deal with the OP's situation.

He might have better results by finding a good dentist or orthodontist who also has experience playing brass instruments.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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prlmnd1011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:

Actually, this is precisely the problem. If you stop analysing and looking to explain all your needs, but go to a good teacher, trusting they will hear what you need to do, then you may end up learning. It's not only what you do not yet know as far as your setup and playing goes, it is that you do not know what the problem is. So stop trying to talk about it, it's not going to help the person you see.

I have had this many times. A prospective student who knows it all and wants XYZ help only. When it is explained that actually ABC is what needs to be looked at so the XYZ will not be an issue, many get all bent out of shape and just walk away, to continue their successful career in low achievement.

Sounds harsh, but it's true. I feel like a car salesman at times, needing to convince people that this is what they need to learn. After all:

You don't know what you don't know!


Hope you don't mind me emphasising a bit...

cheers

Andy


Man, this is getting further and further from the point. At what point did I insist on XYZ help only? I am open to every ABC out there. I am actively searching. It's kind of the reason I'm on here.

A good teacher. A good teacher. How do I find this person? Maybe writing a post on trumpetherald would be helpful? Should I explain why I seek a teacher? Maybe it could be useful for readers to know a little of my backstory to aid in their feedback? Hmmm...

I think a "good teacher" is someone who also listens to what the student has to say, rather than just barking out assumptions because they're so "good."

And just out of curiosity, why do you feel the need to have to convince people of anything? Everyone's different. Perhaps it would be less of an emotional strain for you if you simply offered constructive advice, which is all I was looking for. Instead, I'm being criticized by someone who claims to know what's best for me, based solely on the information I provided, which according to you, I shouldn't be doing in the first place.

Anyone else getting dizzy?


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prlmnd1011
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
To avoid wasting time consulting with people who don't have the knowledge or experience dealing with what might be an 'impossible lip & teeth setup', it would be helpful to do enough 'self analysis' to describe the 'this is what I've got going on' situation.

A teacher or working pro might be fine for helping someone with a typical 'working embouchure' that needs 'fine tuning' to become a better player, but could be clueless about how to deal with the OP's situation.

He might have better results by finding a good dentist or orthodontist who also has experience playing brass instruments.

Jay


Thanks Jay, appreciate your thoughts and I totally agree. I do worry that my lip and teeth structures are a big part of my difficulties. Then what? Reconstructive surgery? (kidding)

The dentist/orthodontist suggestion is a great idea! Thank you.


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