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Bach C Chicago 25C leadpipe problem


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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:


As much as other trumpets may play easier and more in tune out of the box, there's one quality they don't possess, the characteristic Bach sound. If not for this, why else would so many tolerate them? As Tomek stated in his original post "The sound is fantastic but this instrument gives me a lot of resistance."


Hi James

I should have responded sooner (time gets away when you are getting ready to demolish half your house) as I understand your point and in no way want anyone to think I may be thinking negatively about the work that you or other great techs do. Osmun is a terrific store and your work is inspired!

Where I shake my head is the cool-aideesque worship of ‘the sound’. There are SO many orchestras and brass sections and trumpet sections sounding great without using a Bach C trumpet either they are doing something wrong which sounds right, or this whole thing about the ‘sound’ is off the mark.

As I don’t play a Bach C, and can get away with playing in an orchestra, I have thought on this for years. A colleague who’s ears I respect opines that while there may be a a Bach C sound, it is a subset of the sound trumpet, and that (a trumpet sound) is what he, as a respected recording engineer, listens for. More, that it is the individual player he hears, not their instrument.

So I remain, still, an anti-Bach fan.

Cheers

Andy
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:

As I don’t play a Bach C, and can get away with playing in an orchestra, I have thought on this for years. A colleague who’s ears I respect opines that while there may be a a Bach C sound, it is a subset of the sound trumpet, and that (a trumpet sound) is what he, as a respected recording engineer, listens for. More, that it is the individual player he hears, not their instrument.

So I remain, still, an anti-Bach fan.

Cheers

Andy


Fair enough Andy, you're right to say one's sound is what a player hears, but at the same time doesn't it make sense to select the instrument that best allows the player to produce that sound?

If you missed it this is from another thread: We sold one to a NEC grad that owns a Yamaha second generation Artist model, no joke, her brand new blueprinted Bach C180L22925H was that good! Read about Ayano Guiles here: https://www.richmondsymphony.com/profile/ayano-guiles/

And to be in the next room while Ayano played Copeland's Quiete City on her Yamaha C then our Bach C. Even her husband, a professional trombone player, commented how much better she sounded on the Bach C. After playing the Bach in a lesson with Tom Siders, Avano purchased the blueprinted Bach C and returned to Sarasota Florida to perform the Copeland later that week.

In conclusion, if a Bach C trumpet best serves your musical goals, we've found ways to make it an even better better tool.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
....And to be in the next room while Ayano played Copeland's Quiete City on her Yamaha C then our Bach C. Even her husband, a professional trombone player, commented how much better she sounded on the Bach C. After playing the Bach in a lesson with Tom Siders, Avano purchased the blueprinted Bach C and returned to Sarasota Florida to perform the Copeland later that week.
I certainly don't doubt everyone's perception and experience in comparing these 2 trumpets.
How do we then explain the BSO trumpet section switching to Yamaha?
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry, you'd have to ask the members of the section to answer your question.

If I were to guess it's a combination of the highly skilled team of Malone and Tanabe personally seeing to their every need on site supported by the resources of Yamaha. This effort, unmatched by anyone else, got it done.

My 2 cents.
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James Becker
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Steve Hollahan
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:00 am    Post subject: Bach C leadpipes Reply with quote

Bach C leadpipes are cut down Bb pipes, except the S. The S is a full length Bb pipe.
The Herseth has an opening which is .004" bigger than the average Bb pipe. And is shorter than A pipe.

25C pipe a short Bb pipe, longer than H pipe. You can buy pipes at
Parts.ConnSelmer. com. I rigged up a temporary mount to try out A pipe on a Bach C I used in grad school.

Try a new pipe and make a judgement then.
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Hollahan is correct, all Bach 25 C trumpets pipes start out as the same tube drawn for Bb trumpets, just trimmed differently and altered for C trumpet. Here's a link to an article by Bob Osmun explaining the differences between the various Bach C trumpet mouthpipes, their tendencies and applications. Note: Bob's reference measurements include the mouthpiece receiver plus the tapered tube. https://blog.osmun.com/mouthpipes-used-on-bach-c-trumpets/

For those that would like to know, the tapered tube lengths are 25C/25H 6", 25A 7 1/2", 25S and 25R (full length Bb) 8 5/8". Venturi standard measurement is .347", and .351" 25H, 25O and some reverse models. Variations of + or - .002" or more are not unusual.

I hope this is helpful.
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James Becker
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65strad
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James Becker wrote:
Steve Hollahan is correct, all Bach 25 C trumpets pipes start out as the same tube drawn for Bb trumpets, just trimmed differently and altered for C trumpet. Here's a link to an article by Bob Osmun explaining the differences between the various Bach C trumpet mouthpipes, their tendencies and applications. Note: Bob's reference measurements include the mouthpiece receiver plus the tapered tube. https://blog.osmun.com/mouthpipes-used-on-bach-c-trumpets/

For those that would like to know, the tapered tube lengths are 25C/25H 6", 25A 7 1/2", 25S and 25R (full length Bb) 8 5/8". Venturi standard measurement is .347", and .351" 25H, 25O and some reverse models. Variations of + or - .002" or more are not unusual.

I hope this is helpful.



I think that the OP indicated that the Chicago C had too much "resistance" to them, and was asking for suggestions from TH members, ie, gap, tuning slide, mouth/leadpipe replacement, drilling 24 mp throat, blueprinting. All legitimate and useful suggestions. Do you have specs on the mouth/lead pipe on the Philly/Chicago C's? Roy Hempley told me that these pipes are not drawn from standard stock tubing.

If an excessive resistance issue is encountered with the Chicago or Philly; it may seem too simplistic a musing, but this pipe is very different than the other models and usually requires acclimation because the blow is very efficient, maybe a bit too efficient/restrictive vs. most L bore C's.

Roy Hempley who had many visits to Elkhart, was trusted by Tedd Waggoner in his extensive research of the history and evolution of Bach trumpets with access to vintage horns, documents, and blueprints that are off limits to all but a select few. I was in frequent contact with Roy and Tedd Waggoner during the the fabrication of a true "one off" custom Bach Bb that was being fabricated for me due to a contest that I was incredibly fortunate to win, SN# 2008.

In any case, Roy mentioned to me, that in their (Vincent Bach) effort to closely replicate the 1955 Bach Chicago C , that they had a challenge to faithfully recreate the pipe that is on today's Chicago C and Philly C.and at fairly significant expense for some reason. It's blow as you and other's reading maybe able to confirm, is quite different compared to all other Bach C's.

I'm not sure if the OP mentioned if they had tried other Chicago's or Philly's prior to their purchase, but how you put air through these horns in particular isn't always an intuitive task.

Less for me at least, was more, before I was able to start to produce my sound concept by still learning to playing it to it's efficiency. No horn is perfect, but I think that if someone is considering replacing a lead pipe on a Philly or Chicago because of of too much resistance, that it may prudent to consider a different Bach C if the Bach sound is what they're after.

The resistance built into these horns make them very efficient and is an intended result. This isn't a standard lead pipe, and any attempt to make it have a blow like a 25H etc. is a waste of money unless it's played to it's efficiency IMO. They're simply a different animal. Not better or worse, but different.

The OP was specific in their challenges with this specific horn, not a regular 229, with a 25H or 25S etc. It's that different. Maybe Chad Winkler could comment. He played his and George Vosburgh played their "modern" Bach Chicago C's in Berlin, Mahler 5 on 9/11/11. Fabulous performance. Bill Caballero on horn will blow you away.

Tweaks are fine, but you can't turn an orange into an apple no matter what you do.
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'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
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'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
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'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602
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rockford
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an original, unmodified, 1955 Chicago C (not for sale) that we compared to the new Chicago C’s at the factory and found the sound of the old and new ones are strikingly similar. The new version is actually noticeably more open feeling than the old original one. Part of the reason is the final adjustment of the gap during testing that opens the instrument up some. In my opinion, most current players would prefer the slightly more open feel of the new version. My suggestion to those who want a more open horn is to open up the mouthpiece rather than screwing around with other pipes. Once you change out the pipe you no longer have a Chicago C.
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65strad
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockford wrote:
I have an original, unmodified, 1955 Chicago C (not for sale) that we compared to the new Chicago C’s at the factory and found the sound of the old and new ones are strikingly similar. The new version is actually noticeably more open feeling than the old original one. Part of the reason is the final adjustment of the gap during testing that opens the instrument up some. In my opinion, most current players would prefer the slightly more open feel of the new version. My suggestion to those who want a more open horn is to open up the mouthpiece rather than screwing around with other pipes. Once you change out the pipe you no longer have a Chicago C.


Agreed
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Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602
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Billy B
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you James Becker for your time, expertise, and above all, patience in explaining the details.

That being said, there is one variable that hasn't been mentioned; no one knows how they sound from out in the concert hall. The sound from on stage can be quite deceiving and IMO has led to the use and modification of different horns to the detriment of the overall ensemble sound. Presence, resonance, ambiance has been sacrificed in favor of playability leading to a higher onstage volume to make up for the "carrying power" of the instrument.

When you hear Bud Herseth playing pp and it sounds the same from the front row to the back; now that's the sound we should all be emulating.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy B wrote:

That being said, there is one variable that hasn't been mentioned; no one knows how they sound from out in the concert hall. The sound from on stage can be quite deceiving and IMO has led to the use and modification of different horns to the detriment of the overall ensemble sound. Presence, resonance, ambiance has been sacrificed in favor of playability leading to a higher onstage volume to make up for the "carrying power" of the instrument.

When you hear Bud Herseth playing pp and it sounds the same from the front row to the back; now that's the sound we should all be emulating.

I think we circle around this all the time. My main teacher in college sounded terrific (he still does, by the way) and sounded like himself, regardless of playing any particular brand.

If you take this to the nth degree, I did a concert where we decided to play natural trumpets rather than valves. We didn't bother the conductor with such trivia, we just played. And he didn't notice apart from commenting after the performance that the blend was especially nice, thanking us for not dominating but being present when needed. THEN he saw the instruments we were holding... was his expression.

cheers

Andy
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pghbachCC
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

65strad wrote:
I'm not sure if the OP mentioned if they had tried other Chicago's or Philly's prior to their purchase, but how you put air through these horns in particular isn't always an intuitive task.

Less for me at least, was more, before I was able to start to produce my sound concept by still learning to playing it to it's efficiency.
No horn is perfect, but I think that if someone is considering replacing a lead pipe on a Philly or Chicago because of of too much resistance, that it may prudent to consider a different Bach C if the Bach sound is what they're after.

The resistance built into these horns make them very efficient and is an intended result. This isn't a standard lead pipe, and any attempt to make it have a blow like a 25H etc. is a waste of money unless it's played to it's efficiency IMO. They're simply a different animal. Not better or worse, but different.

The OP was specific in their challenges with this specific horn, not a regular 229, with a 25H or 25S etc. It's that different. Maybe Chad Winkler could comment. He played his and George Vosburgh played their "modern" Bach Chicago C's in Berlin, Mahler 5 on 9/11/11. Fabulous performance. Bill Caballero on horn will blow you away.

Tweaks are fine, but you can't turn an orange into an apple no matter what you do.


65, between your input of the design characteristics of the Chicago/Philly Cs, Roy's research (I have an offline copy of his C trumpet articles in case the internet implodes one day), and Jim Becker's input on what can be done to rectify some of the quirks of these design choices and general flaws of the horns, I'd say there's not much more discussion to have because all the information is right here.

For context, I'm currently one of Chad's students at Duquesne, and just about all of us play Chicago Cs at his behest. Mine's only a thousand or so serials away from his personal horn (I bought it used, it was the most viewed C trumpet on the marketplace here for several months before I picked it up), and the only issues I've had with mine are that it's a little sharp across the board and the plating job was horrendous. While my horn can sound much more like a 229L than some of the new 7XXXXX Chicago Cs (largely excessively bright and efficient for me, although I've tried one I'd sell my soul for...), it's definitely a different sound and playing concept than just about any other Bach horn.
Chad plays his Chicago with a couple different 1C 24/24s and 25/24s of varying age (new, Mt V, Corp., etc) as his daily horn, and the sound I've heard from that setup is consistently bested only by Mike Sachs. This is based on his regular GP horns, not the new namesake horn from Bach, of which I have no experience.

As for me, I don't buy into "1C Land, Pittsburgh, PA", but I have found that without alteration to the horn besides brass valve guides—which are more about resonance and less about blow—the solution for me was a more open or more deep mouthpiece. I've been rotating a Bach Symphonic 1 1/2C 25/24, Curry 1.5BC, and a Bach 1 1/4C 24/24 from somewhere between '94 and '96, and looking into a Pickett of similar characteristics, all which provide unceasingly powerful sound of great core and projection (some brighter than others) and compensate FOR ME (without really sacrificing anything) the efficiency of the Chicago C, which is already a little more moderate than other Chicagos I've tried.


My 2 cents. Take the horn to Osmun to make it play at its best, or (if you can find the magic bullet) use a mouthpiece that solves your problems.

If someone wants me to speak more about the Pittsburgh way of life with these horns, I'm willing to do so, although with Micah Wilkinson as the new principal playing a Yammy custom-built for him and Chuck Lirette and Neal Berntsen switching as well, the times are a-changin'.
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rockford
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to mention that the C trumpets used by Pittsburg are more like Herseth’s original C trumpet than the one produced in the mid 50’s for the Chicago symphony. Still good instruments and obviously sound great in the right hands, but not the same as the Chicago C trumpets.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.
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pghbachCC
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockford wrote:
I just want to mention that the C trumpets used by Pittsburg are more like Herseth’s original C trumpet than the one produced in the mid 50’s for the Chicago symphony. Still good instruments and obviously sound great in the right hands, but not the same as the Chicago C trumpets.


That's new information to me, but certainly important info. At the risk of veering too far off topic for the thread, what differences are you aware of between Herseth's old horn (and the new Bach stuff) to the set of 6 Cs made for the CSO?
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B&S X-line CX Cornet
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rockford
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pghbachCC wrote:
rockford wrote:
I just want to mention that the C trumpets used by Pittsburg are more like Herseth’s original C trumpet than the one produced in the mid 50’s for the Chicago symphony. Still good instruments and obviously sound great in the right hands, but not the same as the Chicago C trumpets.


That's new information to me, but certainly important info. At the risk of veering too far off topic for the thread, what differences are you aware of between Herseth's old horn (and the new Bach stuff) to the set of 6 Cs made for the CSO?
Without actually looking at the instruments here are a few things. The older 1940’s instruments have a 7 pipe and the Chicago C’s have a 25. The new Chicago pipe is a little more open than the original 25. Most Mt. Vernon bells would be considered lightweight today and the new Chicago C’s replicated that weight.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.
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