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James Becker
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Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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Location: Littleton, MA
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 Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Irving wrote: | | I was told by Lloyd Fillio in the 80's that the reason that Bach changed to one piece valve casings was because they were having problems with "leakage". Believe it...or not. |
Actually the leakage problem sighted by the folks from Bach was acid bleed at the connection where the upper nickel baluster and lower brass casings were joined. This is the explaination Lloyd Fillio provided years ago for the change over to one piece valve casings. Acid bleed can appear anywhere that residual chemicals from the manufacturing process can creep out. Usually along the edges of braces, the bell rim and in this instance valve baluster connections and will show up as dark brown spots under the lacquer.
I hope this information is useful.
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James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com
Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US |
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razeontherock
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Joined: 05 Jun 2004
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Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| _dcstep wrote: | | I suspect that mass is more important than the number of pieces. When Tanabe made his Chicago Brass Works trumpets he offered two valve block mass options |
He offered the choice of 1 piece or 2 piece. Whether this was in addition to the options you mention I can't say, but Wayne didn't specify 1 as better and the other worse. He did say 1 gave more player feedback, but I don't remember which. |
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J. Landress Brass
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Joined: 29 May 2006
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Location: New York City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: |
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To add to the discussion a little. Pre-War French and English Besson instruments were also made with 2-piece valve casings, however they were different then the other 2 piece models being discussed. These horns were made entirely of seamed tubing (made from sheet brass) including the valve casing which comprises of 2 tubes the length of the casing soldered over each other and a third piece as the bottom threads. Other manufactures including Bach and Conn made at one point 3 piece valve casing which comprised of a top baluster, the piston casing and the bottom threads.
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Josh Landress
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38 West 32nd Street, STE 908, NY, NY 10001
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65strad
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Location: Toms River, New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Interesting timing on this question. Although this isn't a Bach specific question, I do know that Bach has not made two piece valve cases for at least 25 or more years; Elkhart or Eastlake. Leakage, or bleed was mentioned in a coorespondence I have had with Roy Hempley. Cost/labor is and always was a major factor. They take more work and cost more to produce, ie Nickel/Brass, and I imagine brass two piece ala Schilke Iimagine as well.
That being said, Tedd Waggoner at Bach has had a two piece valve case nickel/brass made for a contest horn that I was lucky to win. According to Roy Hempley, no acoustical studies have been conducted by Bach or the Conn-Selmer folks to see if there is a substantial or marginal difference in the tonal characteristics. For my part, I enjoy the evolution and historic construction characteristics of their horns and this is a unique opportunity for me to replicate and combine several eras of construction in to my own "ideal". How it will play time will tell. I would also be curious to know if there is a benefit or otherwise of the two piece design if anyone knows.
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Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602 |
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Irving
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Joined: 11 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Bach also used to make two piece valve casings out of the same metal as well. I have a Bach Mercedes that has a two piece brass casing. No nickel. I also have a very old cornet (Bach, 1928) that has a solid nickel valve casing. I think it is also two piece.
As far as changing over to a one piece casing, I'm sure it was for economic reasons. Since they changed over around 1976-77, they had been making two piece casings during the previous 40 years. Suddenly, they had "leakage" problems? Gimme a break. Bach bells are made differently now as well. I couldn't say whether I think that the new Bachs are better or worse then the old ones, since I haven't actually tried a new one, post strike that is. I find the newer Bachs, pre strike to be pretty heavy instruments with heavy bells. Not my cup of tea. I certainly wouldn't buy one before trying it. |
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uglylips
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Is there an easy way to determine if your valve casings are one or two piece?
I have a silver plated Bach 72, serial #138xxx, which puts its' manufacturing date somewhere around 1976-1977. |
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OldSchoolEuph
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| uglylips wrote: | Is there an easy way to determine if your valve casings are one or two piece?
I have a silver plated Bach 72, serial #138xxx, which puts its' manufacturing date somewhere around 1976-1977. |
With silverplate it can be pretty hard to see - I cant think of any way to recognize it without having seen a lot of them. Maybe one of the techs here will chime in.
The one piece casings phased in over the 1972-74 time frame, though with any date-based "rule" regarding Bach's there are always exceptions.
This thread is old enough that it doesn't mention the 190 series, which use 2 piece casings (180s remain 1 piece).
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
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1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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JetJaguar
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I read somewhere else that in the case of nickel ballusters, having the nickel in contact with the bell (by way of a brace, usually) provides a different resonance or vibration for the bell, and perhaps a more desirable sound.
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1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
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I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
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benlewis
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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A very (and I mean very) loose guide for Bachs is the "Corporation" stamp on the bell. An original "corporation"-belled horn very likely has the two-piece balusters. I have seen some lacquered horns that have two-piece valves with a non-Corporation bell, but that is likely the result of a bell replacement...
Also, the earlier lightweight (star mark on bell) horns had two-piece casings, but the upper portion was bronze rather than nickel, further muddying the picture...
HTH
Ben |
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JetJaguar
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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To clarify, do you mean the star marking on the bell, indicating light weight bell, was done on the horns with 2-piece casings, and later light weights lack both 2-piece casings and a star on the bell?
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1938 Martin Handcraft Imperial #2 bore, 38 bell
Bach 7C mouthpiece
I'm looking for a Connstellation 5C-N or 5B-N mouthpiece
www.jazzscales.org
The Coady Strengthening Exercises: http://coady.coolwarm.com |
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Ed Kennedy
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: casings |
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| James Becker wrote: | | ALaschiver wrote: | | You can repair a two piece, one piece more difficult. I have always been under the impression that quality casings were two piece. www.marcinkiwicz.com (two piece) |
I'm not sure what you mean when you say a one piece casing is more difficult to repair. The majority of the time the damage to casings is in the lower part of the casings where the cylinder gets warped at the ports. This can ususally get trued by honing the cylinders until all high and low spots are leveled.
According to the folks at Bach they were having "acid blead" issues with the two piece casing causing problems with their finish. This was the explaination they gave to a room full of Pro Shop technicians back in the early 90's. Personally I think it was a convenient excuse to change over to a more modern machining method that saved material costs since nickel is more costly than yellow brass.
Jim Becker |
Agreed. When we did overhauls at Schilkes if the balusters(sp?) (the top piece of the casing) were severely worn at the contact points usually on the contact points we would pull them file out the pitting and rotate 180 degrees so a fresh surface would be exposed to wear. One time we had a Bach with severely damaged top threads. The usual fix was to replace the damaged baluster. Imagine our surprise when we discovered that the casing was one piece! The tech doing the work, Steve Kulb, did replace the baluster following some major surgery converting it to a two piece valve casing. That was our discovery of Bach's change to one-piece casings. |
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JoeLoeffler
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| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| A star on the bell only marks the bell itself as “lightweight”. It says nothing about the weight of the valve assembly (lightweight or standard gauge tubing) or the design of the casing tubes. |
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benlewis
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Location: Memphis, TN
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| benlewis wrote: | A very (and I mean very) loose guide for Bachs is the "Corporation" stamp on the bell. An original "corporation"-belled horn very likely has the two-piece balusters. I have seen some lacquered horns that have two-piece valves with a non-Corporation bell, but that is likely the result of a bell replacement...
Also, the earlier lightweight (star mark on bell) horns had two-piece casings, but the upper portion was bronze rather than nickel, further muddying the picture...
HTH
Ben |
Here's a link to an eBay auction (I have no connection with the seller) of an early Elkhart Bach with the two-piece valves with the bronze upper balusters...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bach-Stradivarius-Model-37/143189829431?hash=item2156c76737%3Ag%3AFLAAAOSw2RJcm8Ht&LH_ItemCondition=2000%7C2500%7C3000
HTH
Ben |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| benlewis wrote: | | benlewis wrote: | A very (and I mean very) loose guide for Bachs is the "Corporation" stamp on the bell. An original "corporation"-belled horn very likely has the two-piece balusters. I have seen some lacquered horns that have two-piece valves with a non-Corporation bell, but that is likely the result of a bell replacement...
Also, the earlier lightweight (star mark on bell) horns had two-piece casings, but the upper portion was bronze rather than nickel, further muddying the picture...
HTH
Ben |
Here's a link to an eBay auction (I have no connection with the seller) of an early Elkhart Bach with the two-piece valves with the bronze upper balusters...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bach-Stradivarius-Model-37/143189829431?hash=item2156c76737%3Ag%3AFLAAAOSw2RJcm8Ht&LH_ItemCondition=2000%7C2500%7C3000
HTH
Ben |
Some good pics in that posting. The 2-piece casings on that 1965 37* are quite apparent.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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