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rbel
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Joined: 13 Feb 2019
Posts: 9
Location: Tracy, CA
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 Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:07 pm Post subject: Questions about the jaw. (Alignment; Forcing jaw forward) |
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Hi, just wanted to ask about the jaw.
So first, what is jaw alignment? I've heard a lot about it and how it's great but I don't know exactly what it is, if I'm doing it already, how it helps, etc.
Secondly, when I play, I actually push my jaw out in front of my front teeth (I have an overbite). This gives me pain in the jaw after playing for some time. so I'm trying to reduce this, but what should I do?
Thanks in advance. Would love to hear all of your opinions on this.
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1764
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:26 am Post subject: |
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If you are currently making a decent sound and getting better, don't think about it. As far as the pain, take more breaks and don't let it get to the point where it's in pain. It should slowly build up you tolerance.
I've gone down the path (or a few dozen) of trying to "do" something to be more "correct." Never really works. What works (outside the confines of taking private lessons with a great teacher) is trying to make the sound and the music I want.
Good luck! |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:10 am Post subject: |
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The main benefit that I find (and utilize) from employing a slight 'jaw forward' setting is reduced mpc pressure on my upper lip. The reduced pressure on my upper lip has allowed playing of higher notes with decent sound quality and volume - and I'm slowly increasing my upper range.
With too much upper lip pressure, the vibrations of the upper lip are stopped, and notes cannot be produced.
I use a 'pucker' style embouchure without any intentional roll-in/out. And for higher notes I 'pull back' on the corners AND tighten the 'pucker'.
I think the total mpc pressure has remained about the same; with 'jaw forward' more of the pressure is on the lower lip.
I am not aware of any benefit of a 'jaw forward' position that is more than needed to reduce upper lip pressure.
I only consciously do 'jaw forward' for notes above the staff - I don't find it useful or helpful on lower notes.
Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Al Innella
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Joined: 08 Jul 2008
Posts: 755
Location: Levittown NY
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:28 am Post subject: |
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If you're experiencing pain,you might pushing your jaw too far forward.I find that by pushing my jaw just enough, so that my teeth are even works best .
Try lightly pressing your extended index finger against your natural jaw position,you should feel more pressure on your top lip.Then repeat this using your current playing position,you should feel more pressure on your bottom lip.Now try pushing your jaw just enough to even your alignment and pressure.
This is works for me.I get the support I need without over extending and without pain. |
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Billy B
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Location: Des Moines
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Place the mouthpiece on your lips as you sit in a relaxed, natural posture. (position). Without moving anything, slide the trumpet onto the mouthpiece. This is YOUR natural position. Forget all that jaw stuff and play.
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Dave CCM/SSO
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Joined: 21 Jan 2015
Posts: 145
Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hello,
Phil Farcas addresses jaw placement in the first few pages of his book "The art of brass playing".
David Hickman also addresses this in his books.
I strongly recommend reading what those experts say about the subject before trying lots of strange things.
Best of luck!
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Springfield Symphony Orchestra (OH)
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JVL
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Joined: 07 Feb 2016
Posts: 894
Location: Nissa, France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Hello
i'd practice "yes-no" à la Bobby Shew, working on aperture at all dynamics on the same note (f-p-f-p-f-p), to set the right alignment
have a watch at this too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTjqabPbWoc
a lesson with Bobby Shew, for instance 
best |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the jaw. (Alignment; Forcing jaw forward |
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| rbel wrote: | | So first, what is jaw alignment? I've heard a lot about it and how it's great but I don't know exactly what it is, if I'm doing it already, how it helps, etc. |
Your teeth are the backing for your lips. You're trapping a small piece of your lips between the mouthpiece and the teeth to create the reed you use to play. Jaw alignment is largely teeth/lip alignment. It's part of the entire structure - other considerations are how much lip top and bottom is over the teeth, how much the teeth are open, the kind of muscle tension acting on the lips, what your tongue is doing, your throat, pressure distribution between top and bottom lip/teeth and of course air usage.
If you really focus on being conscious of what's going on, I think you'll find as you go higher the top lip will tense more and more in a specific way, the bottom lip will bear up and in toward the top lip. Some of this tension makes it through the tissue under and inside the mouthpiece to impact the tissue that's actually doing the buzzing.
An experiment I think is worthwhile to try is play a note and push the horn angle up until the note stops speaking, then bring it down again to see where it starts speaking again and you get the best sound. Try it going low too - try both on various pitches throughout your range, helps gain a conscious sense of where the horn angle should be. Also try opening and closing your teeth to see where you get the best sound. Also try varying the pressure - how much can you back off the pressure and still get the sound you want?
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take2
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Location: Watertown, MA
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about the jaw. (Alignment; Forcing jaw forward |
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| rbel wrote: | Hi, just wanted to ask about the jaw.
So first, what is jaw alignment? I've heard a lot about it and how it's great but I don't know exactly what it is, if I'm doing it already, how it helps, etc.
Secondly, when I play, I actually push my jaw out in front of my front teeth (I have an overbite). This gives me pain in the jaw after playing for some time. so I'm trying to reduce this, but what should I do?
Thanks in advance. Would love to hear all of your opinions on this. |
In general it's usually better to at least prevent the jaw from becoming so receded that the horn points down well into the music stand. But having said that? There will be some trumpet players who simply can not get a good tone unless they do recede and or drop their jaw. The reasons for this are several and kinda complicated. Beyond the scope of my reply.
If however you want to bug me via pm? I'd be glad to discuss this further.
The Roy Stevens system aka as"Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique & Embouchure Self Analysis" is a forward jaw method. And one which I encourage everyone to learn at least something about.. Whether you apply it to your playing or not.
While a lot of Roy's students never could "get" the system plenty of others did and OMG the things that they could do!!! I initially "failed" at the system myself too. However I kept at it. Tweaking things here and there until I finally started to pull the damned thing off! Lemme tell ya,
On some days (I'm a newcomer to the embouchure change I'm going through) it feels so easy to hit double C's on these good days that the effort needed to get them seems no greater than a mere G top of the staff.
Another embouchure similar to the Stevens system was Doc Reinhart's Type IV A. It is virtually indistinguishable from Roy Steven's embouchure. In fact the two men were competitors back in the day. And in fact Reinhardt concurred with Stevens on the ease of playing this forward jaw , sometimes known as "upstream" chop setting. The Doc said similar words regarding how EASY it is to blow high notes.
In fact on my good days working this system? I literally can play scales from double to triple C this way. And with an ease almost like Julie Andrews singing her "Do, Re, Mi's to the Van Trapp Family in the Sound Of Music. No foolin!
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