Tone Development

[lmao_a_horn_player]

This has probably been worn to death on this forum, but I will ask it again anyway. In my efforts to achieve better tone quality, I have been doing mainly long tones and lyrical etudes on a 3c. It works perfectly until I need to use my lead piece and my tone will suffer (both a little stuffy and bright). I have heard of developing range by working on a deep mouthpiece and it will be there when you switch to the shallower piece with less effort. Does the same concept apply to tone development? Meaning if you can develop a good sound on a lead piece, will this make it even better on the 3c? Or should I just stick to developing on my 3c and the brightness will dial back on the lead piece once I develop more on the 3c? Thanks in advance for any replies!

[HERMOKIWI]

You have to reconcile yourself to the fact that you're going to produce different sounds with different mouthpieces. So, when you switch from your 3C to your "lead piece" (whatever it is - I assume it's a lot shallower than your 3C since "shallow" is how most players define a "lead piece") you're going to get a different sound.

That being said, my understanding of your issue/goal is that you want but are not getting in your lead piece the core and resonance you get with your 3C, that you are getting a brighter timbre with your lead piece but that the core and resonance are not carrying over from your 3C to your lead piece.

This leads me to a fundamental question: Is the cup diameter, rim width and rim contour of your lead piece different from the cup diameter, rim width and rim contour of your 3C? From your description of your issue I would suspect that your lead piece and your 3C are different in these measurements/characteristics. If my suspicion is correct then this is certainly a part of the problem. Cup depth can affect this as well if it is too shallow for your vibrating lips to have sufficient room to function properly.

The idea is to play everything with one embouchure. When you start mixing up cup diameters, rim diameters and rim contours you place yourself in the position of having to make a lot of embouchure adjustments to make all of your mouthpieces behave the same in terms of core and resonance. I think a better system is to play the same cup diameter, rim width and rim contour on all your mouthpieces and just vary the cup depth and backbore to fine tune the timbre you want. If the 3C is working for you in terms of core and resonance then that would be a logical standard for you.

I don't agree that developing range with a deep cup or otherwise big mouthpiece makes it easier to produce the high range on a narrower and/or shallower mouthpiece. I take the position that cup diameter is like shoe size: It either fits you best or it doesn't. So, if a 3C fits you best then switching to a smaller diameter isn't going to help you with your high range on trumpet any more than wearing shoes 4 sizes too small will help with your vocal range in the chorus. Bill Watrous could play a trumpeter's double G (4 ledger lines above the staff) on his trombone. He didn't need a tiny mouthpiece for the high range and, from your description that the 3C is working well for you, neither do you.

Range is a product of proper technique far more than it is a product of anything else. Certain characteristics in mouthpieces can give you a mechanical advantage in producing the high register, but the advantage is very slight. It's not enough of a mechanical advantage to make much real difference. In terms of sound the critical question is "are you getting the core and resonance you want?" If you are then the mouthpiece you're using is fine and you can fine tune the timbre (while retaining the core and resonance) with very fine adjustments to that basic mouthpiece.
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HERMOKIWI

[zaferis]

+1 to HERMOKIWI - an excellent reply!

Listen - you will improve your tone as you solidiy your concept of sound and have a goal to work toward.
Play in ensembles - you will put all of this to use/practice
Practice, practice, practice - this is a long term process, keep working toward a goal - it doesn't happen overnight - it happens after years of overnights.
Take lessons - instruction will keep you on the path, focus goals, and keep you from distraction (wasting time, looking for answers in the mouthpiece / trumpet)

Now, GO PRACTICE
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Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
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[Brad361]

[lmao_a_horn_player]

I should've been more specific with the original post. I play lead on a GR 66sz and I will be moving from the Bach 3c to a 66L in a few months. A consultation led me to the conclusion of the 66L and my hope is that it will make it easier to switch between the two gr mouthpieces and different genres of music because of the similar rim contour. The reason I didn't get the 66L during my consultation is because I wanted to get something to make lead playing easier, and I wasn't doing much classical trumpet outside of Arban and Clarke for practice, so I figured it would be better to get the lead mouthpiece to see if it was worth it to get the deeper mouthpiece later on.

[Andy Del]

So you got fitted to. 66L, and went a got a different mouthpiece?

That, there, is the problem. You can play your brighter ‘genre’ on any mouthpiece, with no problems, IF YOU PRACTICE SENSIBLY. I have had students use a 3C an play lead in a big band up to double high C well, and only got into trouble when they tried to find a ‘lead’ mouthpiece.

So, get the mouthpiece which works Ana’s bin the rest. Then go practice.

Cheers

Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes...

[Lionel]

[delano]

I never realised that there is a way of thinking that makes range the same as tone quality. But maybe the last two paragraphs of Lionel's post could also be his aswer on how to milk a cow properly.
BTW, I think that studying tone quality on a relatively shallow mouthpiece can help by improving someones tone if that is the main body of the OP's question.