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Water in trumpet: Condensation or spit?


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MJo
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
IMO this was always a useless excercise. When playing there will NEVER be unrestricted passage of air. The instrument resistance is always there.

Why a pvc pipe anyway? Just open your mouth and exhale for the same effect.


Why not a pvc pipe? It encourages the right feel -- it does for me, at least, and I've heard (and read) others say the same. And it would be great if it were as simple as you suggest, but I'm sure you know that many players struggle with keeping their throats relatively unconstricted (relaxed) and ridding themselves of the "grunts."
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percivalthehappyboy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Mjo wrote:



Quote:
One of the things this teacher did at my first lesson was to give me an approx. 1.5" diameter piece of pvc pipe to breathe through in order to get the feel of the unrestricted passage of air.


IMO this was always a useless excercise. When playing there will NEVER be unrestricted passage of air. The instrument resistance is always there.

Why a pvc pipe anyway? Just open your mouth and exhale for the same effect.


It doesn't have to be a PVC pipe. I've done it with a toilet paper tube. The pipe forces you to get your tongue out of the way and helps you to get the feel for being "open". It improved my sound.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan O'Donnell wrote:
Now that I give it some thought...You guys are making a lot of sense related to the wrapping of the tubing and condensation build-up.

I've been playing a Carol Brass Pocket Trumpet (which is crazy great!) and I find that it collects moisture faster possibly due to the tighter wrapping of the tubing in relation to the (2) spit valves versus my other Bb Trumpets???...It does not take long to get the dreaded "gurgle" sound...I make a water dump...it goes away and not too long later..."GURGLE"!!!

Does this make sense to anyone out there?

Please help me better understand this...


dan

same business with my carol 3880 cornet. without the long lead pipe and with the tighter bends i think the instrument tends to trap water. the cornet has lever keys so it's particularly easy to dump the load.
i plan on getting a carol pocket for fun and travel.
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percivalthehappyboy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan O'Donnell wrote:
Now that I give it some thought...You guys are making a lot of sense related to the wrapping of the tubing and condensation build-up.

I've been playing a Carol Brass Pocket Trumpet (which is crazy great!) and I find that it collects moisture faster possibly due to the tighter wrapping of the tubing in relation to the (2) spit valves versus my other Bb Trumpets???...It does not take long to get the dreaded "gurgle" sound...I make a water dump...it goes away and not too long later..."GURGLE"!!!

Does this make sense to anyone out there?

Please help me better understand this... :lol:


I wouldn't think the tighter wrappings would collect moisture faster. But skinnier tubing and tighter bends would start gurgling sooner, with less water collected. There's just less space to put the water before it cuts off air flow.
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dutch-trumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today I was practicing with my practice mute. I had to use the water-key regularly to empty the water build-up in my trumpet.
When I finished my practice session I removed the practice mute and there poured a stream water out of the bell.

Normally the water doesn't get that far. Sometimes a few isolated drops in the bell. I guess that the practice mute trapped the warm air a bit resulting in the water stream coming out of the bell?

Now I am just wondering. If it isn't spit but water that condensates in the horn then where did the water come from?
It is probably not just water from the air you breathe in. Somewhere the relative humidity of the air you blow in the horn has been increased. I suppose this would happen in the lungs but where does that extra moist come from?
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All that extra moisture comes from YOU. This is why I guard against dehydration when practicing; i.e., drink a lot of water.

When I was testing the theory behind heavy horns and "efficiency," I got to play Jason Harrelson's Gravity. No doubt the heaviest trumpet ever built. I would never try to actually play the thing longer than just a test, but it proved to me he is on to something. And the thing would collect water, just sitting on the stand! Acts like the condenser of an air conditioner.

"Go for the vapor," let us all know when you can see the vapor coming out your bell while you play ...
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dutch-trumpet
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
All that extra moisture comes from YOU.

Yeah, that was what I was worried about . It might not be saliva, but it is fluid from the body.
That makes me wonder if trumpet playing could be harmful to the lungs?
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally speaking mechanical things wear out with use, while living tissue has the capacity to adapt, including getting stronger or gaining capacity. Trumpet playing encourages both and no doubt adds years to our life expectancy as well as greatly improves quality of life, provided we avoid certain pitfalls: dehydration, strain by overdoing it, n+1 disease landing us in the poor house and/or alienating loved ones ...

Many great teachers teach concepts like use warm moist air to get a big warm sound. You're probably doing something right!
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percivalthehappyboy
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PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dutch-trumpet wrote:
razeontherock wrote:
All that extra moisture comes from YOU.

Yeah, that was what I was worried about :lol:. It might not be saliva, but it is fluid from the body.
That makes me wonder if trumpet playing could be harmful to the lungs?


You lose a lot more water than that when you exercise, even if you're not breathing through a brass tube and collecting it while you're riding a bicycle. Some people play wind instruments as a form of therapy. Keep your trumpet clean and your lungs can't be harmed by it.
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thecoast
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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 5:40 pm    Post subject: Use the “Windsorb” Reply with quote

I just got this gadget to avoid the puddles: https://www.amazon.com/WindSorb-absorber-container-Model-Trumpet/dp/B07MHZFY8R/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Windsorb&qid=1557365964&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Very convenient.
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KjetilS
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dutch-trumpet wrote:
Today I was practicing with my practice mute. I had to use the water-key regularly to empty the water build-up in my trumpet.
When I finished my practice session I removed the practice mute and there poured a stream water out of the bell.

Normally the water doesn't get that far. Sometimes a few isolated drops in the bell. I guess that the practice mute trapped the warm air a bit resulting in the water stream coming out of the bell?

Now I am just wondering. If it isn't spit but water that condensates in the horn then where did the water come from?
It is probably not just water from the air you breathe in. Somewhere the relative humidity of the air you blow in the horn has been increased. I suppose this would happen in the lungs but where does that extra moist come from?


It comes from your body burning sugar: C6h12o6 +6o2=>heath+6co2+6h2o
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another point, if your instrument is "dirty" on the inside it will collect condensation faster (more surface area to grab it)...

I find that if I switch form one horn to another often, I have much more "spit".. horns are warming and cooling.. the one you play and put down on a stand will cool and create more condensation.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: Use the “Windsorb” Reply with quote

thecoast wrote:
I just got this gadget to avoid the puddles: https://www.amazon.com/WindSorb-absorber-container-Model-Trumpet/dp/B07MHZFY8R/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Windsorb&qid=1557365964&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Very convenient.


Really????

This was recently discussed here, to each his own, but I cannot imagine using those things, an old newspaper on the floor seems like a better idea.

Just my opinion.

Brad
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thecoast
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was curious. It looked like it could do what it said it did and it wasn't too expensive. It does the job satisfactorily even if it's not a perfect solution.
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—Akai EWI 5000
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I guess. 🤔

Brad
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veery715
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KjetilS wrote:
It comes from your body burning sugar: C6h12o6 +6o2=>heath+6co2+6h2o
That must be the British Isles version of the chemistry. Ye have to take the high road though.
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KjetilS
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

veery715 wrote:
KjetilS wrote:
It comes from your body burning sugar: C6h12o6 +6o2=>heath+6co2+6h2o
That must be the British Isles version of the chemistry. Ye have to take the high road though.

No just Scandinavian bad spelling
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trombahonker wrote:
Sometimes it's whiskey.


Or beer
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dutch-trumpet wrote:
razeontherock wrote:
All that extra moisture comes from YOU.

Yeah, that was what I was worried about . It might not be saliva, but it is fluid from the body.
That makes me wonder if trumpet playing could be harmful to the lungs?

No harm in playing trumpet!
I had an abdominal aneurysm repair done 7 years ago, a very involved surgery, and struggled to recover as I thought I should. I picked the trumpet back up 5 years ago and started playing 3-4 hours a day (which I should have done when I was 16) and my health and breathing has done nothing but improve since. 3 years ago my cardiologist called me after a 6 month exam and said “ I don’t know what you are doing but keep it up” - I feel that this activity - if it did not save my life, surely improved the quality greatly. Keep music in your life for mental and physical health and don’t worry about moisture. Learning to play starting with a big breath may cause more moisture (does for me ) but that’s just how I was taught to play. In marching band I never had to use a water key because it came out the bell we blew so freely. I simply never looked at it as being anything to worry about unless you make a mess.
Rod
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